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Ragey Erasmus

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General rule of racing, if someone has plonked their car on a part of the track, you can't drive into it. Hamilton was level with Verstappen at the braking zone and began backing off when it was clear Verstappen was going to swipe across him, he didn't slow down in time and clipped Verstappens rear wheel.

Verstappen for years has driven in a similar manner to Schumacher, when he seems to have lost a position he would turn and force the other driver to either back out or risk a collision. If you watch the aerial shot in slow motion you see Hamilton is level and turning into the corner, Verstappen on the other hand begins turning into Hamilton like he isn't even there. It was high risk but ultimately Hamilton had succeeded in getting level with Verstappen and Verstappen should have realised that Hamiltons car would therefore be covering the racing line on the inside of the corner. The fact he made no allowance whatsoever for the fact the racing line would be obstructed is what caused the crash.

This is how the cars were positioned when Verstappen decided to start turning in, there is no way Verstappen couldn't have seen Hamilton here.

2021-07-18_21h04_27.png

This is how the cars were immediately before contact. Verstappen was taking the racing line completely ignoring the Mercedes. Hamilton is behind as he started backing off when Verstappen cut across him.

2021-07-18_21h04_50.png

Verstappen played chicken, he intentionally cut across a car on the inside that was covering the racing line using the "back out or crash" brinksmanship and it failed. Hamilton didn't force his car out to hit Verstappen, Verstappen turned in to hit Hamilton. Had Hamilton's car not been there, Verstappen would have been driving his car to hit the apex, something he should NOT have been attempting once he saw Hamilton had the inside covered.
 

die_mole

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verstappen double and triple moves whenever he is under pressure and has never been punished for it. I don't think either driver should have gotten a penalty as it was just two top drivers pushing cars to their limits but to think Lewis binned Max is insane; Lewis is lucky he got to finish he go to finish the race given the speed at which contact happened.
 

Reiser99

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General rule of racing, if someone has plonked their car on a part of the track, you can't drive into it. Hamilton was level with Verstappen at the braking zone and began backing off when it was clear Verstappen was going to swipe across him, he didn't slow down in time and clipped Verstappens rear wheel.

Verstappen for years has driven in a similar manner to Schumacher, when he seems to have lost a position he would turn and force the other driver to either back out or risk a collision. If you watch the aerial shot in slow motion you see Hamilton is level and turning into the corner, Verstappen on the other hand begins turning into Hamilton like he isn't even there. It was high risk but ultimately Hamilton had succeeded in getting level with Verstappen and Verstappen should have realised that Hamiltons car would therefore be covering the racing line on the inside of the corner. The fact he made no allowance whatsoever for the fact the racing line would be obstructed is what caused the crash.

This is how the cars were positioned when Verstappen decided to start turning in, there is no way Verstappen couldn't have seen Hamilton here.

View attachment 11712

This is how the cars were immediately before contact. Verstappen was taking the racing line completely ignoring the Mercedes. Hamilton is behind as he started backing off when Verstappen cut across him.

View attachment 11713

Verstappen played chicken, he intentionally cut across a car on the inside that was covering the racing line using the "back out or crash" brinksmanship and it failed. Hamilton didn't force his car out to hit Verstappen, Verstappen turned in to hit Hamilton. Had Hamilton's car not been there, Verstappen would have been driving his car to hit the apex, something he should NOT have been attempting once he saw Hamilton had the inside covered.
I agree, but my understanding is that according to the rules because Max is ahead he is entitled to the racing line. Hence why Hamilton got the penalty as he should have backed out. I feel the issue is the rules that essentially allow Max to do that knowing if there is contact he's unlikely to get the penalty as he's ahead.
verstappen double and triple moves whenever he is under pressure and has never been punished for it. I don't think either driver should have gotten a penalty as it was just two top drivers pushing cars to their limits but to think Lewis binned Max is insane; Lewis is lucky he got to finish he go to finish the race given the speed at which contact happened.
Tbh F1 has another issue with rules being inconsistently applied. They have a panel of stewards and I know that the former driver who is part of it regularly changes. From what I've seen and heard there are some huge differences in decisions depending on who is judging. There is at least one former driver that the current drivers dread because he is so strict.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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I agree, but my understanding is that according to the rules because Max is ahead he is entitled to the racing line. Hence why Hamilton got the penalty as he should have backed out. I feel the issue is the rules that essentially allow Max to do that knowing if there is contact he's unlikely to get the penalty as he's ahead.

Tbh F1 has another issue with rules being inconsistently applied. They have a panel of stewards and I know that the former driver who is part of it regularly changes. From what I've seen and heard there are some huge differences in decisions depending on who is judging. There is at least one former driver that the current drivers dread because he is so strict.
My understanding of the rules is that as soon as a car has their front tyres alongside your car, you cannot try to cut across that space. Verstappen is clearly cutting across Hamilton when his car is virtually level. I've not raced at this level but at lower levels if someone is in that position, you can't just swing across them. Verstappen was the one that created the crash scenario, Hamilton then causes the crash by not backing out fast enough but he shouldn't have had to back out. Assuming neither driver makes a mistake, if 2 cars go in side by side and brake equally well, the inside car will still be blocking the racing line when you get to the turning point. This is the whole reason the ducking back under technique exists, you have to concede that part of the track when they are next to you in the braking zone. Verstappen has the right to the racing line only if it is not obstructed, clearly Hamilton's car was already on the racing line but Verstappen took it anyway.

I think if this collision had been the same but Hamilton had crashed out rather than Verstappen, Verstappen would have got the same or worse penalty. He was the one who turned in, he squeezed the space, he ignored the position of the other car and he was the one who moved across the track causing contact. Hamilton's only fault is that he didn't let Verstappen bully him. By extension had Hamilton not backed off at all, Verstappen would have simply ploughed into the side of him before they had even reached the apex.

I'm not a great Hamilton fan, I think he's a prima donna and very whiny. Verstappen though I think is a bully.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Terrible.
Amazing that the idiots who keeps saying players/drivers should stop protesting against racism as it doesn't happen are almost certainly the same ones who are dishing out the racism...
 

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Once Hamilton is alongside him in the breaking zone he is entitled to space at the corner but only that. From his position he is never making the apex and he should be moving towards his side of the track. Verstappen is heading for the apex but if Hamilton was using the entire track they don't collide. So one could argue he has given Hamilton enough room therefore he harsh but fair. So it can only be judged Hamilton caused the crash. However it not as easy to turn an F1 car as the stewards adjudged and he hasn't changed his racing position from where he entered the breaking zone. Verstappen should be aware Hamilton he has to give Hamilton more room than normal even though he doesn't strictly speaking have to.

For me its a racing incident pure and simple especially as opening laps are usually adjudged to have leniency. If anyone was at fault it is Hamilton but it wasn't a 10 second penalty. I think the stewards were more looking at result that cause.
 

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I have to disagree with most of what's been said here. Hamilton was never in a million years getting Verstappen's place going down the inside on a high speed corner like that and as such he needs to avoid contact with the driver on the racing line. It was a reckless, desperate divebomb move at best. Stop go all day for me, it's a massive injustice that the penalty given didn't take him out of contention to win.

I'm not a huge Verstappen fan other than wanting him to knock Hamilton off his perch but I am a huge fan of LeClerc and he drove a far better race than Hamilton and deserved the win.
 

ncurd

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I have to disagree with most of what's been said here. Hamilton was never in a million years getting Verstappen's place going down the inside on a high speed corner like that and as such he needs to avoid contact with the driver on the racing line. It was a reckless, desperate divebomb move at best. Stop go all day for me, it's a massive injustice that the penalty given didn't take him out of contention to win.

I'm not a huge Verstappen fan other than wanting him to knock Hamilton off his perch but I am a huge fan of LeClerc and he drove a far better race than Hamilton and deserved the win.
Managed to get past Norris and LeClerc on the same corner and on the inside both times. Admittedly he is further to the right on the LeClerc move.

He also doesn't have to get the place if he can get his car alongside Verstappen has to give him room, thus making him not have to take the optimum line which he no longer entitled to.

We either want wheel to wheel racing or we don't this penalty plus the ridiculous decisions in Austria makes me feel the stewards don't.
 

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Managed to get past Norris and LeClerc on the same corner and on the inside both times. Admittedly he is further to the right on the LeClerc move.
Looked like LeClerc **** out of the corner because he knew Hamilton would take him out if not, tbf
 

ncurd

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Looked like LeClerc **** out of the corner because he knew Hamilton would take him out if not, tbf
Was given enough room he made a slight hash out it though to make it look more dramatic than it was, by hitting the curb. He essentially does what Verstappen was supposed to do which is compromise his corner and not go for the apex. However as noted what probably happened was a misjudgement from Verstappen that he was fully past Hamilton when he turned in and Hamilton should of been aware that Verstappen didn't have to give as much room as he wanted.

They certainly would of hit of LeClerc went for racing line but he's not entitled to it once Hamilton is alongside.
 

Le Frére Alpha

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Managed to get past Norris and LeClerc on the same corner and on the inside both times. Admittedly he is further to the right on the LeClerc move.

He also doesn't have to get the place if he can get his car alongside Verstappen has to give him room, thus making him not have to take the optimum line which he no longer entitled to.

We either want wheel to wheel racing or we don't this penalty plus the ridiculous decisions in Austria makes me feel the stewards don't.
Further back against a quicker than both here though, once he was out of the slipstream his momentum was gone and the only time he was anywhere close to alongside Verstappen seemed to be because he missed his initial braking zone, Verstappen slowed first despite going slower and being on the outside line. Even then the red bull was a nose in front. I think the onboard is pretty damning for Hamilton.

As for wheel to wheel racing, sure everyone wants it but you have to appreciate it's rare for instances like this, if you're going to get the elbows out you have to prepare to be punished for messing up. I don't think the punishment fit the crime this week.
 

die_mole

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The most comical start to a race I’ve ever seen
 

Ragey Erasmus

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So Bottas took out both Red Bulls and Lando so taking out the entire opposing team and next nearest rival, couldn't have done it better if he had intended it.
 

ncurd

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After the rugby last night and this I think I've chosen the wrong weekend to not be about.
 

die_mole

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After Silverstone I was feeling Bottas deserved to keep his seat but I think he was lucky to avoid clipping Lewis today.

George funnily gets his first points in a Williams but is now behind Latifi in the WDC, what a race.

Great defending from both the Alpines, what a comeback by Ocon.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Apparently Vettel has been DQ'd for a breach of fuel rules (being able to extract at least 1kg of fuel at any point in the event for testing).
 

Reiser99

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Apparently Vettel has been DQ'd for a breach of fuel rules (being able to extract at least 1kg of fuel at any point in the event for testing).
That will help Hamilton. He'll get an extra 3 and Max an extra 1, so 2 extra points overall.
 

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