F1 Racing

[Bada-Bing!]

Lewis Hamilton suspects he has long Covid after Hungarian Grand Prix

Lewis Hamilton says he has been battling with his health this year after contracting Covid-19 last December.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Reiser99]

Good video here of how hypocritical Verstappen and Red Bull are.

Hell on the first lap of Silverstone Verstappen did to Hamilton, what Hamilton did to him later. Difference, Hamilton pulled out to avoid a crash. Reverse, Max refuses and a crash happens. Yes Hamilton may have been 'predominantly' at fault, but he only did what Max does regularly and what Max literally did to him a few corners before. Max relies on others avoiding him, where as he takes contact.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Good video here of how hypocritical Verstappen and Red Bull are.

Hell on the first lap of Silverstone Verstappen did to Hamilton, what Hamilton did to him later. Difference, Hamilton pulled out to avoid a crash. Reverse, Max refuses and a crash happens. Yes Hamilton may have been 'predominantly' at fault, but he only did what Max does regularly and what Max literally did to him a few corners before. Max relies on others avoiding him, where as he takes contact.

More than half of those clips are from 2018? Proves very little considering Max's marked maturity since then. The first clip is also completely different, tighter corner at lower speed.

Every team in F1 are hypocritical, there's always a political line but Max has drove fairly flawlessly this season and is only behind in the championship because of two incidents where Merc are at fault.

 

[Reiser99]

More than half of those clips are from 2018? Proves very little considering Max's marked maturity since then. The first clip is also completely different, tighter corner at lower speed.

Every team in F1 are hypocritical, there's always a political line but Max has drove fairly flawlessly this season and is only behind in the championship because of two incidents where Merc are at fault.

I don't disagree that other teams are hypocritical, but Max has always been aggressive and yet suddenly when the shoe is on the other foot he complains. If he's going to drive aggressive then he needs to take it too. He usually forces other drivers wider or make them avoid him and it seems that the excuse is, he hit the apex. Basically he sticks his car in a position to force the other driver to back out, if he drives like that then he can't complain when other drivers also drive aggressively. He's an excellent driver, but he also gets positions by forcing other drivers into a game of chicken and in F1 that's dangerous. For me Max knew what he was doing. The Hamilton penalty was more a technicality as they noted both were at fault, just Hamilton more. Max could have backed out like he forces other drivers to do, but he didn't.

On a slightly different note, everyone keeps talking about Hamilton missing the apex. I'd love to know where in the rules it says cars have to hit the apex. Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable about racing, but if a car is there then the other person can't just turn in because they have the racing line or the car missed the apex. Take the example where Max did it to Hamilton. People say he hit the apex, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't drive around the corner like he did there normally. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't disagree that other teams are hypocritical, but Max has always been aggressive and yet suddenly when the shoe is on the other foot he complains. If he's going to drive aggressive then he needs to take it too. He usually forces other drivers wider or make them avoid him and it seems that the excuse is, he hit the apex. Basically he sticks his car in a position to force the other driver to back out, if he drives like that then he can't complain when other drivers also drive aggressively. He's an excellent driver, but he also gets positions by forcing other drivers into a game of chicken and in F1 that's dangerous. For me Max knew what he was doing. The Hamilton penalty was more a technicality as they noted both were at fault, just Hamilton more. Max could have backed out like he forces other drivers to do, but he didn't.

On a slightly different note, everyone keeps talking about Hamilton missing the apex. I'd love to know where in the rules it says cars have to hit the apex. Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable about racing, but if a car is there then the other person can't just turn in because they have the racing line or the car missed the apex. Take the example where Max did it to Hamilton. People say he hit the apex, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't drive around the corner like he did there normally. It makes no sense to me.

There is no small part of Hamilton hate behind excusing Verstappens actions.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Show me an example from this season of Max driving dangerously. The Imola clip above Hamilton is still within track limits, he's not on the road but the kerb is part of the track. Verstappen outbreaks him*, forces him wide, wins the position. If there was a collision there it'd be because Hamilton turns in on him away from his optimal racing line.

Going back to 2018 and Max's second full season in the sport is definitely the more outrageous bias.

*Hamilton didn't do this in Silverstone, breaks earlier while behind and eats up Verstappen's position on the track by not continuing to slow his car down.

Like let's be honest here, Verstappen has the better car and is the better driver so far this season. Hamilton leads the championship by virtue of a lenient penalty for taking out Verstappen and his teammate damaging Verstappen's car. You rarely get an F1 season that doesn't even out so hopefully Verstappen gets a bit of luck in the second half of the season because he has never looked off podium pace unlike his rival.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Show me an example from this season of Max driving dangerously. The Imola clip above Hamilton is still within track limits, he's not on the road but the kerb is part of the track. Verstappen outbreaks him*, forces him wide, wins the position. If there was a collision there it'd be because Hamilton turns in on him away from his optimal racing line.

Going back to 2018 and Max's second full season in the sport is definitely the more outrageous bias.

*Hamilton didn't do this in Silverstone, breaks earlier while behind and eats up Verstappen's position on the track by not continuing to slow his car down.

Like let's be honest here, Verstappen has the better car and is the better driver so far this season. Hamilton leads the championship by virtue of a lenient penalty for taking out Verstappen and his teammate damaging Verstappen's car. You rarely get an F1 season that doesn't even out so hopefully Verstappen gets a bit of luck in the second half of the season because he has never looked off podium pace unlike his rival.

Sorry but no, Verstappen did not outbreak Hamilton because Verstappen ended up flying right across the whole width of the track before he got his car to a speed where he could make the corner. A legitimate outbreaking allows you to take to corner on a tighter line and simply block the other car from taking the normal racing line. Verstappen did not do that at all and actually collided with the side of Hamilton whilst still trying to slow down. A full collision was only avoided by Hamilton turning out and slowing right down. A car that has outbraked another on the inside will be travelling slower than normal once it reaches the turning point due to needing to keep it tight, Verstappen entered that corner still going faster than normal.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sorry but no, Verstappen did not outbreak Hamilton because Verstappen ended up flying right across the whole width of the track before he got his car to a speed where he could make the corner. A legitimate outbreaking allows you to take to corner on a tighter line and simply block the other car from taking the normal racing line. Verstappen did not do that at all and actually collided with the side of Hamilton whilst still trying to slow down. A full collision was only avoided by Hamilton turning out and slowing right down. A car that has outbraked another on the inside will be travelling slower than normal once it reaches the turning point due to needing to keep it tight, Verstappen entered that corner still going faster than normal.

There was absolutely no way Verstappen was going wide on that corner, he went from a nose ahead to basically his full car length on the optimal line where he could take the corner far quicker. Hamilton's onboard is so damning here, he breaks first and is still moving away from the apex, he had no right to fight for the position, Verstappen had won it.

[YT vid was blocked]

Hamilton is moving slower and turning at a wider angle than Verstappen after losing the position causing the collision. He's 100% at fault for this one.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

There was absolutely no way Verstappen was going wide on that corner, he went from a nose ahead to basically his full car length on the optimal line where he could take the corner far quicker. Hamilton's onboard is so damning here, he breaks first and is still moving away from the apex, he had no right to fight for the position, Verstappen had won it.

[YT vid was blocked]

Hamilton is moving slower and turning at a wider angle than Verstappen after losing the position causing the collision. He's 100% at fault for this one.

You're confusing the corners, I was saying at Imola where he dived up the inside, there was no way Verstappen outbraked Hamilton, he had zero chance of taking the corner which is why he ended up going right across the track.

As for Verstappen winning it, the Stroll incident is identical and red bull whinged about that. Had Verstappen not turned in, Hamilton would have made the corner by using the whole width of the track EXACTLY like Verstappen did at Imola. Either both are at fault or both aren't. The only difference is Hamilton backed out of defending at Imola and even then Verstappen still made contact with his car. The issue is Verstappen NEVER backs down, it's always got to be the other driver. Nobody else on the grid drives like that and it's that attitude that causes these crashes.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

You're confusing the corners, I was saying at Imola where he dived up the inside, there was no way Verstappen outbraked Hamilton, he had zero chance of taking the corner which is why he ended up going right across the track.

As for Verstappen winning it, the Stroll incident is identical and red bull whinged about that. Had Verstappen not turned in, Hamilton would have made the corner by using the whole width of the track EXACTLY like Verstappen did at Imola. Either both are at fault or both aren't. The only difference is Hamilton backed out of defending at Imola and even then Verstappen still made contact with his car. The issue is Verstappen NEVER backs down, it's always got to be the other driver. Nobody else on the grid drives like that and it's that attitude that causes these crashes.

Ok fair, we'll have to disagree on that. It's very marginal but Hamilton doesn't leave track limits, just has to take a very slow line, it's elbows out driving, aggressive but fair in my view. Similar to Verstappen in Silverstone, he has the better racing line. Far slower as well which can't be discounted.

Even the Silverstone incident was marginal, I think being at fault for taking out the pole sitter should have been a drive through stopping Hamilton winning the race but 10 seconds isn't ridiculously lenient or anything either.

I do think Verstappen has driven very well this year, Imola is really the only questionable moment. He's definitely been quicker than Hamilton and this usually balances out across the season, but there are years like 2016 where the best driver loses through no fault of their own. At the moment Verstappen is behind in the championship through no fault of his. Spa looks good for RB though, especially with Bottas' penalty, so hopefully he'll get back ahead and the last two races are put to bed somewhat.

I do hope Ferrari get it right next year though, I think at this point in all of their careers LeClerc and Sainz are far and away the best pairing.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ok fair, we'll have to disagree on that. It's very marginal but Hamilton doesn't leave track limits, just has to take a very slow line, it's elbows out driving, aggressive but fair in my view. Similar to Verstappen in Silverstone, he has the better racing line. Far slower as well which can't be discounted.

Even the Silverstone incident was marginal, I think being at fault for taking out the pole sitter should have been a drive through stopping Hamilton winning the race but 10 seconds isn't ridiculously lenient or anything either.

I do think Verstappen has driven very well this year, Imola is really the only questionable moment. He's definitely been quicker than Hamilton and this usually balances out across the season, but there are years like 2016 where the best driver loses through no fault of their own. At the moment Verstappen is behind in the championship through no fault of his. Spa looks good for RB though, especially with Bottas' penalty, so hopefully he'll get back ahead and the last two races are put to bed somewhat.

I do hope Ferrari get it right next year though, I think at this point in all of their careers LeClerc and Sainz are far and away the best pairing.

Yes I can't really be bothered to continue the back and forth of apportioning blame as neither of us are going to change the others mind at this stage. There is no denying Verstappen is a very skilled driver and, short of continued bad luck, he will win a championship. Given he is almost certainly going to get a grid penalty for the engines, I don't think it will be this year unless things go wrong for Hamilton.

The only point I'd make is about the driver vs the car. Verstappen never won any series before he entered F1 and now Red Bull look to have a very good car but the praise is going to Verstappen as a driver. Hamilton won every series he was in on the way up to F1 and almost won his rookie season. He has had plenty of bad luck and been in teams that were not dominant for many years. His role in Mercedes is reduced to nothing with Schumacher for god knows what reason getting plaudits for the development of the Mercedes but Hamilton getting none, despite him being the successful driver. I don't see how it can be claimed that the car is setup for Hamilton on the one hand but then say he had no part in getting it there... He's up there as one of the greatest of all time and I can't think of any sportsman who has achieved as much as Hamilton has and yet is so denigrated not just for their personality but their actual ability. I know F1 is different because you have a machine involved to contend with but every great also spent the bulk of their career in superior cars. I cannot think of an F1 great whose major successes were not achieved in a dominant car. The best cars attract the best drivers so the 2 invariably go hand in hand but only with Hamilton is this used to denigrate his ability as a driver.

I'm no Hamilton fan but I do get annoyed at the extent people will go to always paint him as in the wrong and not actually being that good, it's just ridiculous. Anyway rant over.

EDIT: Also I've never seen Hamilton doing something like this:

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I've only been talking about this season, he hasn't been that good, made a lot of unforced errors which Verstappen hasn't, he's just been very lucky. Don't think there's any denying that.

I don't like either driver. Two petulant whinge bags when things don't go their way. Generally a good trait to have in modern F1 though, Vettel was the same in his four year run.

 

[Reiser99]

I feel like Verstappen is more a beneficiary of his car than any other driver. By that I mean, it feels that red bull's development has been about making a car for Verstappen. Maybe he is just a better driver, but every team mate he's had recently has struggled far more than other of team mate combination (with possibly exception of Russell and Latifi). I reckon they have focused on developing an outstanding car that would benefit Verstappen's style the most rather than a car that isn't quite as good, but would be more drivable for other racers. It's a legitimate tactic, but you have to feel for his partners if this is the case.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's the same in Merc, the car was just so dominant that it was disguised by Bottas picking up wins the last few years. A year and a half with Albon who has to be one of the worst drivers in a top team for a long time muddies the waters for RB too as to just how focused towards Max the car is.

Merc were very quick to impose a hierarchy after 2016 and Verstappen is RB's golden child. I reckon LeClerc and Lando could get similar treatment going forward too.

 

[Reiser99]

It's the same in Merc, the car was just so dominant that it was disguised by Bottas picking up wins the last few years. A year and a half with Albon who has to be one of the worst drivers in a top team for a long time muddies the waters for RB too as to just how focused towards Max the car is.

Merc were very quick to impose a hierarchy after 2016 and Verstappen is RB's golden child. I reckon LeClerc and Lando could get similar treatment going forward too.

Is it the same with Merc? As an example this season they have swapped chassis regardless of the championship and the standings. I'm not saying Merc haven't developed a dominant car, but I don't think they've designed out purely around Hamilton's driving style, which is why Bottas has been competitive. Max though is often out qualifying his team mates by half a second or more. That includes Albon, Gasly, Perez. For me that suggests the car has been designed specifically with him in mind and his teammates have to adapt their style to be closer to his.

 

[ncurd]

The other complicated question is Hamilton a driver who needs car set up towards him, Button has talked about it in the past where he needs a car dialed to his personal preferences yet when he was teammates with Hamilton he found Hamilton was just 'quick' regardless. I think the prime example in the paddock is Alonso who always seamed to getting the most out of crap car.

Relative merits between drivers are always complicated, simple rule if you won 3 championships with different teams (the Vettel clause although rules out Stewart) your probably an all time great if not something went wrong.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Is it the same with Merc? As an example this season they have swapped chassis regardless of the championship and the standings. I'm not saying Merc haven't developed a dominant car, but I don't think they've designed out purely around Hamilton's driving style, which is why Bottas has been competitive. Max though is often out qualifying his team mates by half a second or more. That includes Albon, Gasly, Perez. For me that suggests the car has been designed specifically with him in mind and his teammates have to adapt their style to be closer to his.

Is Bottas competitive this year? He had his Saturday in Portugal but not much else to write home about. Similar to Perez if anything. Merc really have had no competition apart from 2018 when Ferrari had and Vettel had a strong first half of the season, they didn't need to tune the car to the max in favour of their better driver. This year looks different to me. Verstappen also won his first gp in a Red Bull when Ricciardo was number 1 driver so it's not like Hamilton who had Ron Dennis in his corner from day 1 at McLaren.

I'm not trying to say Hamilton is anything worse than top three all time here but more that some of the criticism of Verstappen is strange. There's so many ways to build up one and knock the other, none really worth it because their situations are fairly similar.

Looking at the current quality of drivers Verstappen, Hamilton and Leclerc are by far the top three, they all have teams building around them and have advantages the others don't within their respective teams. I think all of them would be dominant over Perez and Bottas (and Albon and Gasly) in quali too, these guys aren't massively quick drivers at all, Bottas probably the best of them but he's been lacking for a while now.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Is Bottas competitive this year? He had his Saturday in Portugal but not much else to write home about. Similar to Perez if anything. Merc really have had no competition apart from 2018 when Ferrari had and Vettel had a strong first half of the season, they didn't need to tune the car to the max in favour of their better driver. This year looks different to me. Verstappen also won his first gp in a Red Bull when Ricciardo was number 1 driver so it's not like Hamilton who had Ron Dennis in his corner from day 1 at McLaren.

I'm not trying to say Hamilton is anything worse than top three all time here but more that some of the criticism of Verstappen is strange. There's so many ways to build up one and knock the other, none really worth it because their situations are fairly similar.

Looking at the current quality of drivers Verstappen, Hamilton and Leclerc are by far the top three, they all have teams building around them and have advantages the others don't within their respective teams. I think all of them would be dominant over Perez and Bottas (and Albon and Gasly) in quali too, these guys aren't massively quick drivers at all, Bottas probably the best of them but he's been lacking for a while now.

I'd add to that list Russell and potentially Norris. Both feel like they are driving beyond the performance of their car.

Generally my criticism of Verstappen as a driver stems from criticism aimed at Lewis. Eg "It's all the car". Hamilton has won championships where all the cars have been the same, Verstappen hasn't. There is a reason Hamilton got a good drive from the off, because he was exceptionally talented and proved that when the cars were all the same. I feel if Hamilton is all the car then Verstappen is too, but somehow asking for consistency in what is being claimed isn't allowed. Hamilton's achievements can be swept under the rug for any number of excuses but the second that same argument is made against another driver, it somehow becomes unfair. I think that in itself highlights the argument is about bias and not an actually valid argument.

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference. Many hate Hamilton because of his dominance / BLM / whining on the radio but the difference between disliking a driver and being bias about their actual ability is most prevalent with him. I never liked Schumacher and know he had a dominant car but I'd never claim he wasn't one of the greatest F1 drivers of all time, his record clearly shows that. I didn't like Vettel at RB but I have warmed to him a lot since he left them. I wasn't much a fan of Hamilton when he started playing the prima donna role. None of those drivers would I claim weren't worthy of their wins though, even though every single one clearly drove in a dominant car at their height. Likewise I don't like Verstappen. I'd never say he isn't a very skilled driver though. It seems Hamilton haters can't simply dislike Hamilton though, it spills over into they don't like him and he actually isn't good and didn't deserve any of his achievements. That next step is what I can't stand, it's absolute rubbish and is treating him differently to every other champ who had a dominant car.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'd add to that list Russell and potentially Norris. Both feel like they are driving beyond the performance of their car.

That's fair, they definitely have the potential. Just wary of putting guys who haven't won races in that bracket even if they haven't had the cars to do so.

Generally my criticism of Verstappen as a driver stems from criticism aimed at Lewis. Eg "It's all the car". Hamilton has won championships where all the cars have been the same, Verstappen hasn't. There is a reason Hamilton got a good drive from the off, because he was exceptionally talented and proved that when the cars were all the same. I feel if Hamilton is all the car then Verstappen is too, but somehow asking for consistency in what is being claimed isn't allowed. Hamilton's achievements can be swept under the rug for any number of excuses but the second that same argument is made against another driver, it somehow becomes unfair. I think that in itself highlights the argument is about bias and not an actually valid argument.

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference. Many hate Hamilton because of his dominance / BLM / whining on the radio but the difference between disliking a driver and being bias about their actual ability is most prevalent with him. I never liked Schumacher and know he had a dominant car but I'd never claim he wasn't one of the greatest F1 drivers of all time, his record clearly shows that. I didn't like Vettel at RB but I have warmed to him a lot since he left them. I wasn't much a fan of Hamilton when he started playing the prima donna role. None of those drivers would I claim weren't worthy of their wins though, even though every single one clearly drove in a dominant car at their height. Likewise I don't like Verstappen. I'd never say he isn't a very skilled driver though. It seems Hamilton haters can't simply dislike Hamilton though, it spills over into they don't like him and he actually isn't good and didn't deserve any of his achievements. That next step is what I can't stand, it's absolute rubbish and is treating him differently to every other champ who had a dominant car.

I mean, comparing their careers is just nonsense, Verstappen isn't in the same league and likely never will be. Peak Hamilton in 2017 & 2018 when there was proper competition from Ferrari was incredible. He absolutely shut them out and applied constant pressure to make Vettel feel like he had to race absolutely perfectly to win which resulted in him binning his car and championship hopes in Germany.

I think Max had been doing the same this season and Hamilton was making uncharacteristic mistakes but it'll be interesting to see how that changes following the previous two races. Hamilton really comes into his own as a front runner fending the competition off.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Honda confirm engine penalties for both RB drivers. Absolutely ridiculous when it was a result of Merc crashing into them. Rules need to be looked at.