Guinness Pro 12: Round 19 Fixtures

[Groundhog]

Bloody red tinted glasses in you Sexton!

 

[munstermuffin]

Zebo should have been yellow carded no debating that whatsoever, a yellow card is statistically worth 7-10 points, Munster scored a try while Zebo would have been in the bin having pressed into Leinster's half with 14 instead of 13 men like they should have had, 13 men wouldn't have done that. If you don't think that is the biggest refereeing blunder of the game the only tinted glasses in this thread are certainly red.

As as for challenging in Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Celtic_League
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Heineken_Cup
Theres similarities in this season and the current one for Leinster, no one would have expected a 2009 HEC win for Leinster in April 2009.

Regards Zebo I not sure of incident but is it the cross field kick or right before half time I don't know which incident. Regards Leinster try 1. I don't think Copeland deserved yellow which played a part and 2. If you look when Sexton ran away there was 2 Munster men being held back around ruck which you'd clearly was evident with space that was there. Would it have stopped try probably not but it's still a pen. At end there was 3 blatant offences and not a 2nd yellow. My point is Leinster got rub of green too and if you want to think ye are so much better fair enough. But while ref was poor if you think he was basically reason Leinster only narrowly won and that ye were 16 points or so better I'd say your in a massive minority of Leinster people I spoke to in the Aviva today. Regards challenging for Europe and comparisons I think there's massive differences.
The squad back then was much better and experienced but underachiever before.
Back then French weren't as interested and wasn't as many powerhouses.
You may disagree but as I said to most today and nearly every Leinster person agreed.
We simply aren't at level of competing with a Saracens or Toulon now. Ringrose will be great potential but today I think showed at times he's still young and needs time to learn.
Leinster realistically in next 2 years
Sexton will start to slightly decline due to age. He's still best but with injuries and age will drop small bit.
Nacewa Heaslip Ross and maybe 1 or 2 more will be gone.
Big issues are at moment ye don't have a back 3 good enough to win Europe even if Fitz and Kearney were fit. Centre will be a jury out until I see but Henshaw and Ringrose sounds good but we don't know. Ye have no 9 good enough and a weak 2nd row. Thats just facts.
Regards Munster it may be good for us to have a year in Amlin, blood more guys and see who has heart while trying to rebuild confidence with the hope of maybe competing for the trophy. Thats where we are at but financially it'd be a disaster

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Regards Zebo I not sure of incident but is it the cross field kick or right before half time I don't know which incident. Regards Leinster try 1. I don't think Copeland deserved yellow which played a part and 2. If you look when Sexton ran away there was 2 Munster men being held back around ruck which you'd clearly was evident with space that was there. Would it have stopped try probably not but it's still a pen. At end there was 3 blatant offences and not a 2nd yellow. My point is Leinster got rub of green too and if you want to think ye are so much better fair enough. But while ref was poor if you think he was basically reason Leinster only narrowly won and that ye were 16 points or so better I'd say your in a massive minority of Leinster people I spoke to in the Aviva today. Regards challenging for Europe and comparisons I think there's massive differences.
The squad back then was much better and experienced but underachiever before.
Back then French weren't as interested and wasn't as many powerhouses.
You may disagree but as I said to most today and nearly every Leinster person agreed.
We simply aren't at level of competing with a Saracens or Toulon now. Ringrose will be great potential but today I think showed at times he's still young and needs time to learn.
Leinster realistically in next 2 years
Sexton will start to slightly decline due to age. He's still best but with injuries and age will drop small bit.
Nacewa Heaslip Ross and maybe 1 or 2 more will be gone.
Big issues are at moment ye don't have a back 3 good enough to win Europe even if Fitz and Kearney were fit. Centre will be a jury out until I see but Henshaw and Ringrose sounds good but we don't know. Ye have no 9 good enough and a weak 2nd row. Thats just facts.
Regards Munster it may be good for us to have a year in Amlin, blood more guys and see who has heart while trying to rebuild confidence with the hope of maybe competing for the trophy. Thats where we are at but financially it'd be a disaster

The second one on the stroke of halftime when he purposely pushed the ball into touch, BO'D, Murray Kinsella and the Sky commentators agreed it was a yellow and a penalty, arguments could have been made for a penalty try and it would have been less contentious than Munster's penalty try vs Connacht a few months ago for example. I think that's the pivotal moment of the game, Leinster were mounting huge pressure on a 14 man Munster and deserved far more than they got due to a horrific call by the referee. Apart from that he cost either side equally but that decision was a 10-14 point turnaround considering how the start of the second half went, it meant Munster were 13-10 ahead rather than 13/17-6 down which turns that into a completely different game. Leinster's rugby at the end of the second half was the best and most clinical rugby of the day, that period and their superior experience was why they were the better side for me, I don't think there's much to argue with there. Copeland was a team yellow from an attacking rolling maul so there's no issue there and there's many on social media arguing that Healy's yellow was harsh too as it was more mistimed rather than reckless or dangerous, Zebo is the outlier in terms of yellow cards.

Ignoring Zebo's lack of yellow I'd say we were slightly lucky but by God Munster were too stupid to win that game. Had they left Jonny Holland on they'd have won it, they had an easy chance for a draw which would have left their playoff chances in all but their own hands and Kilcoyne cost them dearly. Stats also read that Leinster had 5 linebreaks to Munster's 1 and ~350 meters gained to Munster's ~250 despite possession being 60-40 in favour of Munster, that tells a lot about the quality of rugby played. Leinster's ball retention was very poor but Munster lacked the quality to capitalise, had Munster got a win it would have been threw Leinster quite literally throwing it away.

Next year we'll have units like McGrath, Strauss, Ross/Furlong; Ruddock, SOB, Heaslip with Conan, VdF and Murphy (who'd looking good again) available; Henshaw, Ringrose who I'm confuse at your criticism, he fell off a bad tackle on Archer but his other missed tackles were quite positive contributions and his attack is flawless, isolation and getting caught behind the gainline aren't parts of his game whatsoever; and Fitz, Kearney, Isa, that's top class right there. A lot depends on Luke McGrath and one of Ross Moloney or James Ryan breaking out, these are guys with starter potential for Ireland, if next year is their year we should be competing in the last four of Europe.

Munster's improvement in three months is notable, they're still a shambles compared to what their fans expect but with injuries returning, the emergence of Holland and hopefully a good DoR they should be pro 12 contenders next year again.

Apologies for coming across as arrogant before this (I suspect this reply will be considered more modest) but I was subject to a rather childish insult from what was a reasonable first post. This loss seems to be the hardest thing Groundhog has taken this year which is bizarre given his and @Tigs Man 's relationship!!!

 

[munstermuffin]

The second one on the stroke of halftime when he purposely pushed the ball into touch, BO'D, Murray Kinsella and the Sky commentators agreed it was a yellow and a penalty, arguments could have been made for a penalty try and it would have been less contentious than Munster's penalty try vs Connacht a few months ago for example. I think that's the pivotal moment of the game, Leinster were mounting huge pressure on a 14 man Munster and deserved far more than they got due to a horrific call by the referee. Apart from that he cost either side equally but that decision was a 10-14 point turnaround considering how the start of the second half went, it meant Munster were 13-10 ahead rather than 13/17-6 down which turns that into a completely different game. Leinster's rugby at the end of the second half was the best and most clinical rugby of the day, that period and their superior experience was why they were the better side for me, I don't think there's much to argue with there. Copeland was a team yellow from an attacking rolling maul so there's no issue there and there's many on social media arguing that Healy's yellow was harsh too as it was more mistimed rather than reckless or dangerous, Zebo is the outlier in terms of yellow cards.

Ignoring Zebo's lack of yellow I'd say we were slightly lucky but by God Munster were too stupid to win that game. Had they left Jonny Holland on they'd have won it, they had an easy chance for a draw which would have left their playoff chances in all but their own hands and Kilcoyne cost them dearly. Stats also read that Leinster had 5 linebreaks to Munster's 1 and ~350 meters gained to Munster's ~250 despite possession being 60-40 in favour of Munster, that tells a lot about the quality of rugby played. Leinster's ball retention was very poor but Munster lacked the quality to capitalise, had Munster got a win it would have been threw Leinster quite literally throwing it away.

Next year we'll have units like McGrath, Strauss, Ross/Furlong; Ruddock, SOB, Heaslip with Conan, VdF and Murphy (who'd looking good again) available; Henshaw, Ringrose who I'm confuse at your criticism, he fell off a bad tackle on Archer but his other missed tackles were quite positive contributions and his attack is flawless, isolation and getting caught behind the gainline aren't parts of his game whatsoever; and Fitz, Kearney, Isa, that's top class right there. A lot depends on Luke McGrath and one of Ross Moloney or James Ryan breaking out, these are guys with starter potential for Ireland, if next year is their year we should be competing in the last four of Europe.

Munster's improvement in three months is notable, they're still a shambles compared to what their fans expect but with injuries returning, the emergence of Holland and hopefully a good DoR they should be pro 12 contenders next year again.

Apologies for coming across as arrogant before this (I suspect this reply will be considered more modest) but I was subject to a rather childish insult from what was a reasonable first post. This loss seems to be the hardest thing Groundhog has taken this year which is bizarre given his and @Tigs Man 's relationship!!!

But just as easily Heaslip or McGrath bringing down mauls. My point is it's all maybes. I can't comment on Zebo issue as I wasn't in clear view. But them are the breaks. Healys yellow was blatant in that it was technically no arms and they're all been punished. Leinster got 3 points also for Ryan being out of it on wrong side. My point is though apart from the try they scored Leinster never really looked like scoring a try. So there's no guarantees they may score. Regards social media I don't look at it much but think Sextons interview was correct in that a draw was fair result except we needed win which helped.

Regards Munster yes we made errors but Holland was shattered. Keats was poor but when Holland came off he was out of it and I know as I tended to him. It was only his 2nd ever start. He hadn't played much rugby and did brilliant. Killers execution was poor but at end Te'o never went back to line so should've been pen but also a draw wouldn't mean much to us. And as stats you mentioned explain our structures are wrong. We aren't linking plays.

I wasn't criticising Ringrose just saying he's still developing and an unknown quantity. On your back 3 I'd disagree that's a top back 3 next year. Kearney is in major decline, Isa is getting older again he won't be able to offer a lot like before. He's solid but not too many top class wings at his age. Fitz is good but needs to stay fit and rumblings I heard today are he still wants to be a centre and it could be a Fitz/Henshaw partnership.
The 3 you mentioned. I'm huge fan of McGrath but he won't get up to Murray level. Sorry but he won't and fact Leinster want a Project player 9 says that.
The other 2 I can't comment as I haven't watched close enough on them to argue any point. Yeah they're potential but I could name a lot in Munster but a lot won't make it.
In areas you mentioned units I admit they're strong but you need to be stronger in many more areas and French teams have that depth only better too. Also Leinster aren't coached great either. Fact is ye looked as disorganised at times too only that ye have a Sexton who's experienced enough to pull strings. But the lack of tries in last few games shows that.

We won't be Pro12 contenders next year. Holland a plus Scannell is a real find at 12 but McGahan won't have magic wand and coaching ticket a mess it'll be very hard.
Now on bright side I think we held our own in scrum and Archer did very well but still we are where we are it's mid table in a league where there is a lot of average to poor teams. If we met a top team as we have in Europe they're breezing past us and it's where Pro12 is at. Glasgow are great example. Top team in league but poor in Europe.

 

[CaledonCol]

The six-try win over Treviso has put the Warriors right in the PRO12 play-off mix with four regular season games still to play.

Glasgow eventually ran out 38-16 winners but had trailed at the break against a determined Treviso side.

Interesting developments as wwith their large International Squad back at Scotstoun Warriors are playing to their true potential .
Strong bench and right attitude !

 

[dullonien]

Anyone else think that Cardiff Blues have finally turned the corner. They're finally looking like a cohesive unit, playing some great rugby at times. There's the odd slip up here and there.

It feels like Wilson has gotten rid of a lot of dead wood from the squad (e.g. No Gavin Evans in the match day squad anymore), and is building a team around the expansive game he wants to play. A good example of this is playing Turnbull at lock alongside the 3 opensides in the back row, which is working well atm.

As with every team Wilson is a part of, the basics have improved no-end. Scrum is now mostly solid, defense is improving all the time, maul far better, lineout is improved, and the basic handling skills of the side is a world apart from what we've been seeing from them for the past few years.

Excited to see Matthew Morgan there next season. Could add yet another dimension to the Blues backline.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Munster where very unlucky yesterday I thought.

But that the way the cookie crumbles I guess.

 

[munstermuffin]

Munster where very unlucky yesterday I thought.

But that the way the cookie crumbles I guess.

Unlucky but didn't deserve win.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Unlucky but didn't deserve win.

Think that is fair.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I'd say we were slightly lucky but by God Munster were too stupid to win that game.

Leinster were very much deserved winners

It appears you are quite good at demolishing your own arguments.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It appears you are quite good at demolishing your own arguments.

It appears you've left out a quite significant aspect of that point...

Ignoring Zebo's lack of yellow I'd say we were slightly lucky but by God Munster were too stupid to win that game.

That error being worth at least 10 points.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I ignored it because i disagree with your assessment.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I ignored it because i disagree with your assessment.

Saying I've dismantled my own argument is still wrong though. You can disagree with that point but it doesn't doesn't affect the argument I've made whatsoever.

Why do you disagree with the assessment by the way? Do you think that deliberately pushing the ball out of play in a try scoring position isn't a yellow card and penalty because that's wrong; Do you think Munster would still have been in a try scoring position playing 13v15 and continue to score with 14 men? Bold call. It was a pivotal moment in the game that went hugely in favour of Munster, there shouldn't be an argument against that, no mistake made by the referee was anywhere near as costly or favourable to either team as that one.

 

[Groundhog]

Saying I've dismantled my own argument is still wrong though. You can disagree with that point but it doesn't doesn't affect the argument I've made whatsoever.

Why do you disagree with the assessment by the way? Do you think that deliberately pushing the ball out of play in a try scoring position isn't a yellow card and penalty because that's wrong; Do you think Munster would still have been in a try scoring position playing 13v15 and continue to score with 14 men? Bold call. It was a pivotal moment in the game that went hugely in favour of Munster, there shouldn't be an argument against that, no mistake made by the referee was anywhere near as costly or favourable to either team as that one.

Pls stop

 

[munstermuffin]

Saying I've dismantled my own argument is still wrong though. You can disagree with that point but it doesn't doesn't affect the argument I've made whatsoever.

Why do you disagree with the assessment by the way? Do you think that deliberately pushing the ball out of play in a try scoring position isn't a yellow card and penalty because that's wrong; Do you think Munster would still have been in a try scoring position playing 13v15 and continue to score with 14 men? Bold call. It was a pivotal moment in the game that went hugely in favour of Munster, there shouldn't be an argument against that, no mistake made by the referee was anywhere near as costly or favourable to either team as that one.

Have rewatched twice and well Zebo maybe deserved a yellow. But you fail to say if the ref correctly gave a 2nd yellow to Leinster for continued offenses or the same reasons Copeland was carded in first it'd have been 15 vs 13 and Munster would've scored then. Also if the 2 players being held back when Sexton scored was spotted then Leinster wouldn't have scored. My point is if you do your logic it actually probably meant Munster would've won but that's rugby. Point is the way your thinking is more on paper. But I've never seen a game won on paper. And have seen many a team down men perform much better as it rallies them so no guarantees either way.

And I think the fairest assessment I'd say is people disagree as it's kind of a selective way you put it out there and you try to say Leinster were 10 points or so better yesterday. But genuinely any Leinster person I met yesterday seemed to be in disagreement with your view and see ye as better than us yes but a long way off challenging for Europe. Capable of winning Pro12 of course but that's the level ye are at. Munster are at a challenging for Top 4 in Pro 12.
Now you may think different but I think most disagree as I think it's a very small minority agree with you.
It's not saying your wrong but more majority are being more realistic.

 

[CaledonCol]

Glasgow despite illness problems in the squad romped home against Zebre . Looks as if it is a contest between Warriors and leinster for the top spot . Key game for Glasgow is agaainst Scarlets . Munster and Connacht will be struggling .