Ireland Squad 2017/18

[big ginger 8]

O'Halloran has been in a number of squads under Schmidt and what he's looking for he's not showing it. RK clearly has what Schmidt wants, was a standout performer last Autumn and knows the set up as well as anyone meaning he slots in without a bother in training etc. and can presumably help the younger lads get to grips with stuff.

If you're good enough you're old enough doesn't really apply to Lamour yet. He's had a few flashes but has shown relatively little to others in similar situations in previous years such as Ringrose, Byrne and RO'L. Far better off getting game time while others are away.

 

[Groundhog]

Don't feel they could have picked a worst person for this than O'Halloran given the latest squad lol.

 

[munstermuffin]

Based on Irish releases.
15. Kearney
14. Earls
13. Aki
12. Henshaw
11. Stockdale
10. Sexton
9. Murray
8. Stander
7. Sean O'Brien
6. Peter O
5. Toner
4. Henderson
3. Furlong
2. Best
1. McGrath

16. Tracy
17. Healy
18. Ryan
19. Dillane/Treadwell
20. Ruddock
21. McGrath
22. Carbery
23. Conway

Will still beat South Africa handy but disappointing if it Rob Kearney there as he isn't good enough and sadly hasn't earned spot lately on my eyes. On team as whole Ruddock only 1 who can feel upset but worryingly depth doesn't look as much as I thought

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But if that the point. Shouldn't Bent or someone like Ah You be with Ireland. My point is Porter should not be in an Irish squad if he is that far off. Not a dig at him I understand he is young and learning the position but Bealham should be there instead if he isn't there at this time

I was surprised that Andrew Porter got called up for November. Right now, I'd have Tadhg Furlong, John Ryan, Finlay Bealham and Michael Bent ahead of him. I can see the logic in calling him up though. The coaching staff clearly think he can contend for a place in the first string 23 come Japan 2019. To do that, he needs to be fast tracked into the Ireland senior squad. I'm more dubious as to whether he';; reach that level in the next 2 years but can't disagree that it's a progressive selection.

Arguably calling Porter into the Ireland squad hinders his development in the very short term. Had he not been in camp in Carton House, he'd quite possibly get 50-60 minutes away to Glasgow.

Taking this into this thread as I feel its more relevant here. I think its clear that outside of the six nations Schmidt starts gearing his selections with a view of building his team for the next World Cup. We saw it last year with tonnes of new caps in the summer and autumn and he used the tour to the USA and Japan well again this year to the point that he hasn't really got a guy in the country screaming out for International caps who isn't capped and yet he has new faces again in this squad. There's been a rise in "apprentice players" in his squads, Joey Carbey, Jacob Stockdale, James Ryan and Andrew Porter have all filled the roles and have improved massively when returning to their provinces, albeit Porter has probably slower than the rest. I hope that Porter, Carbery, Byrne, Sweets and Ryan, who I'd call the apprentices in this squad continue that trend again because some of them may not get a chance come spring. (Schmidt has even hinted at Zebo returning which shows how much more competitively he treats that tournament) I'm under no doubt that Andrew Porter has a higher ceiling than any TH prop outside this squad and while Schmidt is trying to build a base of about 40 players for the next RWC and is using any inexperienced player who he believes can provide an impact in 2019. Right now he believes in the players he currently has picked and has likely been on the phone to the likes of TO'H, RO'L and Rory Scannell telling them what they have to do to be considered again and why the players currently in the squad are considered better than them, it'll drive success.

Will still beat South Africa handy but disappointing if it Rob Kearney there as he isn't good enough and sadly hasn't earned spot lately on my eyes. On team as whole Ruddock only 1 who can feel upset but worryingly depth doesn't look as much as I thought

I'm not going to get into RK's play here, you say black, I say white when it comes to him but I'm going to comment on him "earning his spot". I think that when it comes to test matches form is hugely overvalued when laymen like ourselves discuss selections. How often is it that you see a guy, who is not "past it" (which at 31, not being a speed merchant and having proven form over the past year RK isn't despite what you'd read) come into a team off the back of little game time or poor form with his club and play badly? Its extremely rare, SO'B will walk into the team on the same amount of minutes this season, give or take, than RK and no one will bat an eye because he'll do what he always does in a green jersey as will RK if picked. My opinion would be that Joey Carbery has been playing to a level that Kearney hasn't since his peak in his mid twenties and should be selected but if Schmidt sees JC solely as a 10 then I don't think Conway or TO'H have played nearly well enough for Schmidt to consider replacing the guy who he's had so much success with who hasn't shown signs of deteriorating. To be honest had JVdF stayed fit I think him v SOB would be the more obviously contentious decision.

 

[munstermuffin]

Taking this into this thread as I feel its more relevant here. I think its clear that outside of the six nations Schmidt starts gearing his selections with a view of building his team for the next World Cup. We saw it last year with tonnes of new caps in the summer and autumn and he used the tour to the USA and Japan well again this year to the point that he hasn't really got a guy in the country screaming out for International caps who isn't capped and yet he has new faces again in this squad. There's been a rise in "apprentice players" in his squads, Joey Carbey, Jacob Stockdale, James Ryan and Andrew Porter have all filled the roles and have improved massively when returning to their provinces, albeit Porter has probably slower than the rest. I hope that Porter, Carbery, Byrne, Sweets and Ryan, who I'd call the apprentices in this squad continue that trend again because some of them may not get a chance come spring. (Schmidt has even hinted at Zebo returning which shows how much more competitively he treats that tournament) I'm under no doubt that Andrew Porter has a higher ceiling than any TH prop outside this squad and while Schmidt is trying to build a base of about 40 players for the next RWC and is using any inexperienced player who he believes can provide an impact in 2019. Right now he believes in the players he currently has picked and has likely been on the phone to the likes of TO'H, RO'L and Rory Scannell telling them what they have to do to be considered again and why the players currently in the squad are considered better than them, it'll drive success.




I'm not going to get into RK's play here, you say black, I say white when it comes to him but I'm going to comment on him "earning his spot". I think that when it comes to test matches form is hugely overvalued when laymen like ourselves discuss selections. How often is it that you see a guy, who is not "past it" (which at 31, not being a speed merchant and having proven form over the past year RK isn't despite what you'd read) come into a team off the back of little game time or poor form with his club and play badly? Its extremely rare, SO'B will walk into the team on the same amount of minutes this season, give or take, than RK and no one will bat an eye because he'll do what he always does in a green jersey as will RK if picked. My opinion would be that Joey Carbery has been playing to a level that Kearney hasn't since his peak in his mid twenties and should be selected but if Schmidt sees JC solely as a 10 then I don't think Conway or TO'H have played nearly well enough for Schmidt to consider replacing the guy who he's had so much success with who hasn't shown signs of deteriorating. To be honest had JVdF stayed fit I think him v SOB would be the more obviously contentious decision.

Again won't go in to RK just to say I think personally he offers nothing just a name to Ireland now. Alot agree with me and equally alot agree with you. I think TOH and Conway offer alot more and are way more deserving and valuable than Kearney is in green now. But again as I say maybe it' just a case of outside Leinster Kearney is rated massively low. Right or wrong thats that.
On rest though my point is still it is disheartening a bit that when our 1st 15 is down (maybe excluding backrow) the dip in quality is big. Zebo down to Kearney in my example alot would think is a big drop now. Equally if Sexton, Toner, Earls or Furlong go

 

[Groundhog]

Based on Irish releases.
15. Kearney

O boi am I avoiding social media if this happens.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

A wee depth chart for the bois:

1. Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne - I wouldn't mind seeing a boi blooded here before the next world cup, no standout options though
2. Best, Scannell, Herring, Tracy, Cronin - We're sound for depth here, worried if Best doesn't make it to 37 because we'd have a very inexperienced starter but this Autumn was not the time to start someone new, maybe give the old man a break next summer and try Scannell in Oz
3. Furlong, Ryan, Porter, Bealham, Moore - Strong af
4. Toner, Ryan, Treadwell, Roux- Happy enough here too, lots of potential for beyond 2019 too
5. Henderson, Dillane, Beirne - Very worrying if Hendy breaks, Dillane hasn't kicked on and we don't know what Beirne will be like yet. Unlikely that I'd trust a fully second choice row v Tonga or Romania
6. CJ, PO'M, Ruddock, Leavy, Conan - Nothing to worry about there, five guys that could slot in extremely effectively
7. SO'B, VdF, TO'D, Leavy, Murphy - Sound here too
8. Heaslip, CJ, Conan - A bit light if injuries crop up elsewhere and Heaslip doesn't come back or isn't the player he was, I could see Deegan finishing 2018 with a handful of caps.
9. Murray, Marmion, McGarth, Cooney - I think Marmion needs to be bumped down the list a little bit, the other two are better replacements for Murray.
10. Sexton, PJ (Pending), Carbery, Keatley - Carbery shoulf get some minutes off the bench throughout next year and I'd be looking at getting Byrne or maybe Bleyendaal or JJ if they can match his form into the sqaud ahead of Keatley
11. Stockdale, Sweetnam, RO'L - Right wing is stronger than the left (Schmidt sees these as more different positions than 12 is to 13) but we've got our best back three player here as well as a lot of potential, Larmour could force his way in which would be great.
12. Henshaw, Aki, McCloskey, Scannell - Strong but need fit 13s.
13. Ringrose, Payne, Henshaw, Farrell - Strong again.
14. Earls, Conway, Byrne, DK - You wouldn't want to fall past the first two.
15. Kearney, Conway, O'Halloran - I like the top two but don't rate TO'H as an intelligent 15, another place I'd like to see Larmour make an impact.

We have to be looking at winning the 6n, winning the Oz test series and sweeping our November series, then we can try a few things in 2019's 6n in an attempt to peak for the RWC like NZ did in 2011 and 2015 in the RC.

 

[munstermuffin]

A wee depth chart for the bois:

1. Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne - I wouldn't mind seeing a boi blooded here before the next world cup, no standout options though
2. Best, Scannell, Herring, Tracy, Cronin - We're sound for depth here, worried if Best doesn't make it to 37 because we'd have a very inexperienced starter but this Autumn was not the time to start someone new, maybe give the old man a break next summer and try Scannell in Oz
3. Furlong, Ryan, Porter, Bealham, Moore - Strong af
4. Toner, Ryan, Treadwell, Roux- Happy enough here too, lots of potential for beyond 2019 too
5. Henderson, Dillane, Beirne - Very worrying if Hendy breaks, Dillane hasn't kicked on and we don't know what Beirne will be like yet. Unlikely that I'd trust a fully second choice row v Tonga or Romania
6. CJ, PO'M, Ruddock, Leavy, Conan - Nothing to worry about there, five guys that could slot in extremely effectively
7. SO'B, VdF, TO'D, Leavy, Murphy - Sound here too
8. Heaslip, CJ, Conan - A bit light if injuries crop up elsewhere and Heaslip doesn't come back or isn't the player he was, I could see Deegan finishing 2018 with a handful of caps.
9. Murray, Marmion, McGarth, Cooney - I think Marmion needs to be bumped down the list a little bit, the other two are better replacements for Murray.
10. Sexton, PJ (Pending), Carbery, Keatley - Carbery shoulf get some minutes off the bench throughout next year and I'd be looking at getting Byrne or maybe Bleyendaal or JJ if they can match his form into the sqaud ahead of Keatley
11. Stockdale, Sweetnam, RO'L - Right wing is stronger than the left (Schmidt sees these as more different positions than 12 is to 13) but we've got our best back three player here as well as a lot of potential, Larmour could force his way in which would be great.
12. Henshaw, Aki, McCloskey, Scannell - Strong but need fit 13s.
13. Ringrose, Payne, Henshaw, Farrell - Strong again.
14. Earls, Conway, Byrne, DK - You wouldn't want to fall past the first two.
15. Kearney, Conway, O'Halloran - I like the top two but don't rate TO'H as an intelligent 15, another place I'd like to see Larmour make an impact.

We have to be looking at winning the 6n, winning the Oz test series and sweeping our November series, then we can try a few things in 2019's 6n in an attempt to peak for the RWC like NZ did in 2011 and 2015 in the RC.

If you going to RWC too options can be Kleyn maybe, Marshall at hooked not that I'd want that route explored too much.

Also you excluded Daly who got talked up alot. I think there a few more youngsters that may break through

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If you going to RWC too options can be Kleyn maybe, Marshall at hooked not that I'd want that route explored too much.

Also you excluded Daly who got talked up alot. I think there a few more youngsters that may break through

With the exception of Beirne I only used capped players, we're just threadbare in that position. I do hope Kleyn makes it to the RWC though as I definitely rate him. I can't see Daly making any squads ahead of Larmour or RO'L in the future to be honest, he has been very good for us this season though.

 

[big ginger 8]

Think you're hurting our lock depth by arbitrarily splitting them up.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Think you're hurting our lock depth by arbitrarily splitting them up.

Is there not a big difference between 4 and 5? My lock knowledge is worse than any other position on the pitch but I've never seen Toner start at 5 or Henderson at 4 and a quick look through the other lads has them starting exclusively in one or the other.

I still think we have Toner, Hendy, Ryan, Treadwell and then hope that Byrne is good, Dillane fixes himself and we have no more than one injury. With the exception of 10 and 15 its where we have the least talent J'pense.

 

[munstermuffin]

With the exception of Beirne I only used capped players, we're just threadbare in that position. I do hope Kleyn makes it to the RWC though as I definitely rate him. I can't see Daly making any squads ahead of Larmour or RO'L in the future to be honest, he has been very good for us this season though.

Just was linking Schmidt namechecking Daly a few times recently.
On Kleyn I think if he is an addition as we have a lot of talented 2nd rows but apart from Henderson there is no real Hard rough b@$t××× in that position. Maybe Ryan will develop in to 1 but you still need a few of them. That's where Donnacha Ryan is missed alot is that aspect.

On the development side there will be a big question on how you approach between now and say RWC warm ups.
A friendly against a shite tier 2 team is pointless for learning in some ways. We got Fiji who are good this year but won't get a tier 2 of that level next year.
So basically in meaningful games. Aus x3, NZx1 (Maybe 2) and Argentina plus 6Nations.
In developing a 15. When do we do it. Ok Kearney may not be fit but if he is when does Schmidt drop him for 2 consecutive games to try get another guy consistent time.
Same at 9 and 10. I'd strongly consider giving Sexton Summer off or just playing 1 test vs Aus. Same with Murray. Play 1.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The IRFU haven't explicitly ruled out picking players who are based outside Ireland. Second row and fullback are the areas where Ireland are lacking for depth. What are the chances of Donnacha Ryan and Simon Zebo being called up in the pre-World Cup warms ups?

It serves a few purposes. Experienced internationals would be brought back into the fold in positions of need. Makes French clubs think twice about signing Irish players because they may be called up at any time. If Ireland wait until summer 2019 to call them up, it allows Ireland develop more depth and also makes a point to the players that if you leave these shores, you lose out internationally in all bar the most extreme circumstances.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Just was linking Schmidt namechecking Daly a few times recently.
On Kleyn I think if he is an addition as we have a lot of talented 2nd rows but apart from Henderson there is no real Hard rough b@$t××× in that position. Maybe Ryan will develop in to 1 but you still need a few of them. That's where Donnacha Ryan is missed alot is that aspect.

On the development side there will be a big question on how you approach between now and say RWC warm ups.
A friendly against a shite tier 2 team is pointless for learning in some ways. We got Fiji who are good this year but won't get a tier 2 of that level next year.
So basically in meaningful games. Aus x3, NZx1 (Maybe 2) and Argentina plus 6Nations.
In developing a 15. When do we do it. Ok Kearney may not be fit but if he is when does Schmidt drop him for 2 consecutive games to try get another guy consistent time.
Same at 9 and 10. I'd strongly consider giving Sexton Summer off or just playing 1 test vs Aus. Same with Murray. Play 1.

I'd be using the tier 2 game, Argentina and maybe Italy in the 6n to do a bit of experimenting, apart from that play the best available players for the games and let injury do the experimenting for you. In the World Cup we might use a complete second team for the last group stage match, a complete 1st XV for Scotland and then hybrid sides like what played Arg in the other two games so our second string side have to be good enough to beat Tonga and I have no doubt that they are after playing badly and beating Fiji.

I don't think we should be experimenting too much outside this because the RWC isn't the be all and end all, I'd rather win one or two 6n, beat NZ and win a series in Oz than reach an RWC semi and do none of that to be honest and I think if we achieve all that we'll have a better chance of reaching that semi anyway because there is no chance whatsoever that in a two year period we'll be able to play the same 15 in 12 big games and depth will build naturally, Schmidt also builds depth extremely well through his use of the bench.

 

[munstermuffin]

@snoopy snoopy dog dog Zebo not a goner yet and Donnacha Ryan might not make RWC but while the IRFU haven't said they won't select overseas guys I think they need that policy as of lads know they can go for buckets more cash and still have a chance it will hurt provinces too.
For example Carbery. (Could be anyone young)
I'm sure he wants international rugby and it helps him stay amongst other reasons. But if he was offered big money to move to be a starting 10 abroad and still be able to play for Ireland. He'd move.

Alpha while I get where you coming from my point is we learn little from just playing them in tier 2 games. Take Conway for example he has backed up he can play a top level based on performances vs England, S.A. and Fiji.
But had he just played Fiji. Some would say well yeah he had superb game bit can he take step up.
Like Porter for example, admittedly not best example given where he is at in developing, we still don't know what level he is at as it was just Fiji.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Alpha while I get where you coming from my point is we learn little from just playing them in tier 2 games. Take Conway for example he has backed up he can play a top level based on performances vs England, S.A. and Fiji.
But had he just played Fiji. Some would say well yeah he had superb game bit can he take step up.
Like Porter for example, admittedly not best example given where he is at in developing, we still don't know what level he is at as it was just Fiji.

You've made my point for me in a way there. I want to know that our second choice players are capable of filling in adequately for the first team, injury will allow us to do that, Conway is next off the bus after Earls and Stockdale and we know he can play, next is Sweetnam and I think Joe should have played him v Argentina and Byrne v Fiji but there'll be opportunities for him either as a starter or as the 23 because there is no chance Stockdale, Earls, RK and Conway play 12 games without an injury to any of them. I don't think we need to know if our third choice guys can be top class v tier 1 opposition though because if disaster strikes and we get two injuries to one position (which didn't even happen at the last RWC we just didn't have the depth at 10 or in the centres) we're going to be at a disadvantage regardless but if we're playing guys with around 5 caps at least they'll know what's needed of them so they can come in and fit the system and raise their game playing with better players. The tier 2 games can tell you if a player isn't up to the standard required and for players who are third choice in their positions that's all you need to know, I wouldn't be happy if Porter had to start against NZ but we know he can play to the system, hold the scrum to some extent and run in an Ireland team, two lads have to break for this to be a possibility so its not that concerning.

 

[big ginger 8]

Is there not a big difference between 4 and 5? My lock knowledge is worse than any other position on the pitch but I've never seen Toner start at 5 or Henderson at 4 and a quick look through the other lads has them starting exclusively in one or the other.

I still think we have Toner, Hendy, Ryan, Treadwell and then hope that Byrne is good, Dillane fixes himself and we have no more than one injury. With the exception of 10 and 15 its where we have the least talent J'pense.

There's some slight difference in role between the locks (not that the difference is always the same between the numbers) Toner and Henderson absolutely have fulfilled both roles and I'd have no worries about Ryan doing the same. Means all of them can be paired with anyone else and it's not a massive difference.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If Zebo's comments in L'Equipe were reported accurately, there's a paywall on the site so I can't read it, his small chance of getting a few more caps is all but gone. Not a big loss by any means in my opinion, I'd consider him the third best 15 after Kearney and Conway (at international level, he's a more useful club 15 than Conway) and Larmour has him in his sights and on the wing the two Munster boys and Stockdale are better and in current form McFadden and Larmour are just as useful.

He's been very petty and very public about getting dropped, I've heard further rumours of him disliking Schmidt and I don't think he's handling how easily replaceable he is well at all.

 

[Groundhog]

He's not even been playing well enough for Munster to justify starting for Ireland. He's so sluggish and meandering in attack. We'll miss his scramble defending and chasing on chip kicks, but there's a long list of players I'd hate to lose ahead of Zebo, and that's just at provincial level. One foot on the plane already.

 

[munstermuffin]

If Zebo's comments in L'Equipe were reported accurately, there's a paywall on the site so I can't read it, his small chance of getting a few more caps is all but gone. Not a big loss by any means in my opinion, I'd consider him the third best 15 after Kearney and Conway (at international level, he's a more useful club 15 than Conway) and Larmour has him in his sights and on the wing the two Munster boys and Stockdale are better and in current form McFadden and Larmour are just as useful.

He's been very petty and very public about getting dropped, I've heard further rumours of him disliking Schmidt and I don't think he's handling how easily replaceable he is well at all.

No but see you'v missed the point. He knew already he was gone but highlighted Schmidt's flaw of 1 rule for Leinster guys and another for the rest when Madigan was selected.
Wheather you agree or not he has achieved his aim. On Zebo though I thinks he's well ahead of Kearney but IMO he's not in form And I agree on Schmidt not selecting guys leaving but the point was more consistency.
And on Madigan bit the point is he was selected despite saying he was off right up to the June. And you will say but there was noone else. But there was Keatley etc. And yes Keatley wasn't playing well although in my eyes Madigan was never a top 10 which has kinda shown as he's never nailed a spot anywhere in a top league.
But back on it the point was it wasn't enforced. Keatley And any other guy who was committed to stating should've been selected regardless of form.
Now more so here in France today they'v stoked the fires too with a comment on how Schmidt has never done a Slam due to his rigid ways and is average in terms of success for all the hype.