Jonny V Danny Cipriani

[wilmartin]

Many say Jonny Wilkinson is out of the international level, to Danny Cipriani. But Does anyone argue, I know I sure as hell do, if he returns to form which I see him doing, he will wipe the floor with Danny, we cant say that hes not in the top 3 fly halfs in the world on form no matter how much we like danny.
Danny also has many rivals eg Toby Flood, and the london Irish fly half whos name Icant spell. Why should these people be forgotten?

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

we cant say that hes not in the top 3 fly halfs in the world on form no matter how much we like danny.
[/b]

Yes, we can.



6 years ago it would have been hard to argue Jonny wasn't in that position. He's lost it though, and no longer draws defenders to him. Plus his distribution and decision making recently at the highest level has been very suspect. Toby Flood has been carrying him from inside centre and, sad though it may be, England cannot continue to pick players for old times sake or because people like them.



Marc Lievremont refused to bow to pressure when he dropped Chabal, England should do the same with Wilkinson.



And FYI I think most people could name more than 3 international fly-halves currently better than him:



Carter

Evans

Hook

Jones

Hernandez

etc



That's five off the top of my head without even thinking about it, and convincing cases could be made for many others. It's time to dismantle the Jonny bandwagon and pick who is actually on form. Complete waste of the talent pool otherwise.

 

[Bullitt]

Even in England Wilkinson isn't near the best available, just off the top of my head I can think of;

Lamb
Cipriani
Geherety
Flood
Myler
Flutey

And they're only the youngsters. If England are desperate for a kicking outhalf, Andy Goode has a much more complete all round game also.

Wilkinson sits too deep in the pocket, no-longer can read a defence or spot a linebreak, has no pace, never passes the ball, never finds touch on a downfield punt, really isn't any good at goal kicking and (listening to some of his recent intervielws) is a f***ing idiot... Players don't have poor form, my arse they don't.

 

[wilmartin]

Cipriani
Geherety
Flood
Goode
These are the three(and hodgson) who can touch international standards I do not think the others have a chance, also I said 'on form' hes in the top three which quite frankly he is.
I still think we shouldn't disregard him just because of one match, he played fine in six nations 07 and for world cup 07 as no one could get their act together untill her returned, this will just be a patch and im sure he wil return to full form.

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Who is disregarding him because of one match? People are clamouring for guys like Cipriani to be picked because they are simply playing much better rugby. Considering the way young Danny was striking the ball against Ireland, I'm not even sure it can even be argued that England need Jonny for his once prolific boot.

The main problem is that he simply doesn't commit defenders at the highest level. When Cipriani gets the ball, multiple defenders rush to bring him down because they know he can cause havoc given any time on the ball. Wilkinson just no longer has the pace to threaten the gain line and make defenders tackle him.

 

[iWin]

Jonny doesn't work any more. He can kick fairly well, but the backs don't function. Cipriani is good at general play, not just kicking. In the past, Jonny was one of the best fly halfs in the world. Now he's not that special.

 

[Nidhogg]

The main problem is that he simply doesn't commit defenders at the highest level. When Cipriani gets the ball, multiple defenders rush to bring him down because they know he can cause havoc given any time on the ball. Wilkinson just no longer has the pace to threaten the gain line and make defenders tackle him.[/b]

This ^

I've heard people calling for Johnny to play 12, but the same argument still applies. He has been unable to present any danger with the ball in hand the past few years. This means that defenders will know they won't have to commit to him, since he isn't going to break the line anyway. His passing has been average as best, and so has his kicking game. He just doesn't cut it at this moment.

 

[nick_w]

Jonny is a basketcase i'm afraid. No longer is he a talismanic back, more a waste of space. Don't get me wrong, he has contributed so much to rugby in England, and no doubt he will continue to be a great ambassador for the game, but unless his form picks up dramatically then that famous drop goal will remain the only classic wilko memory I'm afraid.

I'd love to see him back and challenging Danny. Competition for position brings out the best in players, but I don't think the Wasps fly half will be receiving much competition from his opposite number up north.

Thanks for the memories Jonny, but lets see what young Cipriani can do.

 

[thepretender]

his distribution was shown to be pedestrian at best, and the difference that a flat fly half brought to england was witnessed in the Ireland game.

jonny isn't exactly in form for newcastle either, and i see that as one of their problems. they have, potentially, an outstanding fly-half in flood, but he has to play 2nd fiddle to Wilko. Perhaps with his injury, Flood will see a promotion to the 10 spot.

 

[Eche_17]

Hey guys do you really think that Cipriani can overthrow Wilko??

No chance.

 

[sanzar]

Hey guys do you really think that Cipriani can overthrow Wilko??

No chance. [/b]

Name the last time Wilkinson did anything of value (that wasn't the 2003 RWC - now 5 years ago).
Exactly.

 

[Bullitt]

Hey guys do you really think that Cipriani can overthrow Wilko??

No chance. [/b]

What do you mean can? He already has.

 

[Sir Speedy]

<div class='quotemain'> Hey guys do you really think that Cipriani can overthrow Wilko??

No chance. [/b]

What do you mean can? He already has.
[/b][/quote]
:lol: /thread.

 

[cyRil]

Cipriani
Geherety
Flood
Goode
These are the three(and hodgson) who can touch international standards I do not think the others have a chance, also I said 'on form' hes in the top three which quite frankly he is.
I still think we shouldn't disregard him just because of one match, he played fine in six nations 07 and for world cup 07 as no one could get their act together untill her returned, this will just be a patch and im sure he wil return to full form.
[/b]

But what is his form these days? He hasn't displayed how well he can play for several years. Perhaps he has now deviated to his overall 'form' being that of mediocre stand-off, due to his number of injuries and the comparative weakness of the pack.

 

[gingergenius]

Get this straight. Jonny pre-injury was the best fly half in the world. He was a metronomic goalkicker, capable of bossing a game better than anyone, and showed time and time again he possessed flair (see 2002 try vs NZ..)

Jonny post injury is still capable of that. We've seen he's still very classy, and can kick well. What we also forget is that with him at 10, there's no need to pick lumps outside him in order to bolster the defence, because JW is still the best tackling 10 in world rugby.

However, whereas the JW of 2002/3 was consistently fiyah, now he throws out one good performance next to a couple of ordinary ones and also can be abysmal.

His goalkicking has become increasingly unreliable; out of hand he was never outstanding but now he's just poor; and without a Will Greenwood at 12 he really misses out on the creative gamereading side and is thus 'boring' since Flood doesn't have the experience to boss him around.

--------------------------

Cipriani is an outstanding talent. I think if he was fit he'd be a shoe-in to the England 10 shirt. He's quick, creative, and has an excellent kicking game. One thing I noticed is JW tends to try to kick end-over-end which gets less distance. DC I've seen put in some monster punts and for me distance > accuracy.

ATM, Cipriani is easily a better 10. However, he's got a long term injury to recover from, we'll see how he manages that.

 

[Bullitt]

In fairness sitting in that comfy armchair behind the England pack circa 2002 -the decline had already begun by the 2003 WC-, even I could have been the best 10 in the world! People also seem to forget Newcastle's woeful performances back then (which to this day) have always been lower-mid table or relegation dogfights.

 

[danny]

Cipriani
Geherety
Flood
Goode
These are the three(and hodgson) who can touch international standards I do not think the others have a chance, also I said 'on form' hes in the top three which quite frankly he is.
I still think we shouldn't disregard him just because of one match, he played fine in six nations 07 and for world cup 07 as no one could get their act together untill her returned, this will just be a patch and im sure he wil return to full form.
[/b]

goode and Hodgeson have proven they are good club players but cannot unfortunatly make the step up to test rugby. Gerehty is my tip tp rival Cipriani in the coming years. Dont even consider Lamb, he has a **** attitude and lacks the defence to flourish for England. He`ll do for Glaws until someone better comes along!

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotemain'>
Cipriani
Geherety
Flood
Goode
These are the three(and hodgson) who can touch international standards I do not think the others have a chance, also I said 'on form' hes in the top three which quite frankly he is.
I still think we shouldn't disregard him just because of one match, he played fine in six nations 07 and for world cup 07 as no one could get their act together untill her returned, this will just be a patch and im sure he wil return to full form.
[/b]

goode and Hodgeson have proven they are good club players but cannot unfortunatly make the step up to test rugby. Gerehty is my tip tp rival Cipriani in the coming years. Dont even consider Lamb, he has a **** attitude and lacks the defence to flourish for England. He`ll do for Glaws until someone better comes along!
[/b][/quote]

I get the sense that Lamb will become Hodgson take 2. However, I'd suggest it might be worth giving him a chance one of these days; trust him against say Italy... a team we won't lose to but aren't a pisstake either.

I'll say it now as I've said it before, we need to choose players and stick with them. Which is why I feel we've wasted a lot of time since the world cup when we could have blooded new players in the midfield (as it is, DC's had 1 cap, hipkiss and tait have had minimal chances, and everyone else who's played has been tried and tested). By now we could have given these guys more of a go, and have an idea about who we're going to select and be consistent with.

As it is I can see us fiddling around with 10-12-13 for another year at least, with the usual thing of the media moaning about a lack of defensive capability; noon comes in and then they moan about a lack of attack; he gets dropped again and the cycle continues.

 

[Harpy106]

In fairness sitting in that comfy armchair behind the England pack circa 2002 -the decline had already begun by the 2003 WC-, even I could have been the best 10 in the world! People also seem to forget Newcastle's woeful performances back then (which to this day) have always been lower-mid table or relegation dogfights.
[/b]

I think you're being slightly disingenuous blaming one player for the failings of an entire team here. It's possible that Wilkinson's performance would improve if playing for a better team (or equally not), but unless you can prove that Newcastle underperform by sheer dint of picking Wilkinson at 10, I think you just have to admit Newcastle (and it pains me!) are second rate and need a lot of work if they're going to compete.

 

[Cerlach121]

Like many are saying on this post, Wilko just dosn't have the pace to cut it at top level for fly half any more. He dosn't draw defenders to him like he used too and his kicking at post and out of hand has alos become very erratic.

I think he will become a fantastic bench player for england, someone who can cover both FH and IC as his tackling abilities are superb, plus when he played at IC against ireland in the Six nations with Cipriani making the calls for him and bossing him he actually showed some flair again.