Pro 12 Round 22

[Feicarsinn]

McGrath's development has been very good to watch. It's a perfect vindication of the NIQ system imo. Van Der Merwe now leaves having served Leinster very well over the past couple of seasons, helping the side compete at the very highest levels. Now we have a young Irish player with the required ability to step up to that stage too without diminishing the team's competitiveness.

Good stuff.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

On Conway, it has been said on here and elsewhere that all he needed was consistent game time. He's had that this season, playing 17 times in the Pro 12 including 13 starts. Until last night, he didn't show much improvement. I've a lot of time for him and think he'll become a good player but perhaps a change of scenery will do him good. I think his kicking, fielding and involvement in general play need work. A move to Munster (Leinster A) where he'll be more of a first team player should boost his confidence.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Check out your tighthead depth. And see Michael Bent fast tracked into winning caps.

I still feel Leinster should have backed Hagan above Bent in the first place, but never mind.

Decent tighthead depth is 2-3 years away. At the moment Ireland are in the same position with Ross as they were with Hayes. If he's injured, we're f%"&ed.

I also prefer Hagan to Bent but prefer Furlong and Moore to both of them.

 

[Amiga500]

Check out your tighthead depth. And see Michael Bent fast tracked into winning caps.

I still feel Leinster should have backed Hagan above Bent in the first place, but never mind.

Tighthead is starting to show promise.

- Stephen Archer (can't believe Im saying this) has come on leaps and bounds and is actually starting to look like he could be the biz in a few years.
- The afore mentioned Leinster duo of Moor and Furlong.
- Paddy Mac at Ulster has shifted to TH, but got injured start of the year. Also Ricky Lutton has come in from AIL as a LH, converted to TH in December and looked very solid in his few Pro12 outings to date.

The locker is definitely in better shape when the bull was being forced to play on with only Mushy as a "considered" backup.

 

[munstermuffin]

Tighthead is starting to show promise.

- Stephen Archer (can't believe Im saying this) has come on leaps and bounds and is actually starting to look like he could be the biz in a few years.
- The afore mentioned Leinster duo of Moor and Furlong.
- Paddy Mac at Ulster has shifted to TH, but got injured start of the year. Also Ricky Lutton has come in from AIL as a LH, converted to TH in December and looked very solid in his few Pro12 outings to date.

The locker is definitely in better shape when the bull was being forced to play on with only Mushy as a "considered" backup.

Agreed Peat Archer has really came on and is well able to challenge Botha next season.
Paddy Mac is a cracking player if he stays fits.
The Leinster duo are good potential but are a bit behind like Furlong was only subbing Tarf this season really.

@Snoop/Feic do Leinster fans feel gutted at practically loosing Hagan at expense of Bent.

 

[munstermuffin]

Really? Even if he has come on, Botha is a very good and dependable. Archer a long way from challenging him for first choice.

One thing I will say though, Kilcoyne looks a real find for Munster, hefty ball carrier and better scrummager than Healy at same stage of career. He will be good competition for Healy in the future for sure.

Says enough when he was ruled out of HEC semifinal that alot of Munster fans were upset. A very good player still developing and has held his own alot the last few months and will overtake Botha in next 12 months. Still very young for a prop too.

 

[munstermuffin]

Fair enough. But may I ask what scrums he has come up trumps against?

Seems to be an Irish equivalent to Scott Andrews tbh. I agree to disagree about Botha who I think is clearly a mile better and more solid. But anyway, Munster's problem if they want to start Archer.

I'd say he did well against Healy recently against Leinster and well Botha was 1 who struggled against McGrath.
Duncan Jones might not be top drawer but Archer did well with him to and he's an experienced guy. And over the festive period he did a great job on Tom Court. He has really came on and is a steady player. In my eyes he will develop in to a HEC standard for sure but that'll be it. A suitable player for covering national team in injury crisis but Paddy Mac and possibly Hagan will be ahead of him for national team

 

[Peat]

Agreed Peat Archer has really came on and is well able to challenge Botha next season.
Paddy Mac is a cracking player if he stays fits.
The Leinster duo are good potential but are a bit behind like Furlong was only subbing Tarf this season really.

@Snoop/Feic do Leinster fans feel gutted at practically loosing Hagan at expense of Bent.

Clearly all us Ulster fans look the same to you!

Personally, I think that while there's potential light at the end of the tunnel, Ireland's situation at tighthead is like using a mine for a dartboard, and the situation at loosehead isn't much better - just a closer light and less need for it. Losing either of Ross or Healy bends Ireland over a table, although its hardly a unique situation around these parts.

 

[lynam1104]

I think we're fine at LH tbh peat, Kilcoyne, and Court being pasable LH's and McGrath has looked solid for Leinster when I've seen him. TH is a little less so, I really hope Hagan dose well with LI and becomes an option for us, and it's nice to see Archer, Moore and Furlong coming through they might not be up to it we don't no yet buts it's better then a few years ago when there was no one really.

 

[munstermuffin]

​

Clearly all us Ulster fans look the same to you!

Personally, I think that while there's potential light at the end of the tunnel, Ireland's situation at tighthead is like using a mine for a dartboard, and the situation at loosehead isn't much better - just a closer light and less need for it. Losing either of Ross or Healy bends Ireland over a table, although its hardly a unique situation around these parts.

Well if it regards Ulster fan forum peat I've never actually been there to see.
But I'd disagree as I think our quality in depth at hooker and Loosehead is good. Court and Kilcoyne have proven this season how good they can be McGrath also has pushed these last few weeks.

 

[big ginger 8]

Really? Even if he has come on, Botha is a very good and dependable. Archer a long way from challenging him for first choice.

One thing I will say though, Kilcoyne looks a real find for Munster, hefty ball carrier and better scrummager than Healy at same stage of career. He will be good competition for Healy in the future for sure.

Think is Kilcoyne's only a year or so younger than Healy whereas Healy was not long out of school when he started playing.

 

[profitius]

I said a year or two ago that it will take time for the props to come through. At that stage the provinces were actively trying to fix the scrummaging problems by picking player more suited to propping ie shorter, stockier players.

At the moment theres a shortage of tightheads but by the time the next world cup comes around that'll be sorted.

 

[Peat]

MM - My point was you responded to a post by Amiga saying agreed Peat...

And you guys are being way too undemanding/sanguine about this. Court and Kilcoyne are cracking Pro 12 players but at international level, honestly, the word 'meh' springs to mind. Court's never really become the scrummager he needs to be to compensate for his small footprint around the pitch at international level, which is a particular weakness when paired with Ross, while Kilcoyne is not yet the scrummager he needs to be for international rugby. Kilcoyne's time looks to be rapidly approaching, but realistically either is a big downgrade on Healy at this moment of time.

 

[Amiga500]

And you guys are being way too undemanding/sanguine about this.

Nah, well. I know the depth isn't there yet - but I know there are players developing nicely that will become that depth.

Therefore, there is no reason to panic long-term, and no need to panic short-term there is little else that can be done right now that would expedite the development.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

And you guys are being way too undemanding/sanguine about this. Court and Kilcoyne are cracking Pro 12 players but at international level, honestly, the word 'meh' springs to mind. Court's never really become the scrummager he needs to be to compensate for his small footprint around the pitch at international level, which is a particular weakness when paired with Ross, while Kilcoyne is not yet the scrummager he needs to be for international rugby. Kilcoyne's time looks to be rapidly approaching, but realistically either is a big downgrade on Healy at this moment of time.

There's a lot of truth in what you say. The context of Irish poster's opinions on loosehead props should be considered though.

Throughout 00's, Ireland had awful options at 1. Once Peter Clohessy left the scene (mercifully), Marcus Horan had a free run in the jersey for much of the decade. Horan was a decent player around the park but survival was his sole aim in the scrum. The other challengers for the 1 spot were Reggie Corrigan and Emmet Byrne, each solid players but not really top class international standard. Tom Court came into view only a year or so after Ulster banished him to Bedford to learn how to prop better - he was awful when he first shipped into Irish rugby.

Now Ireland have a 25/26 year old Cian Healy who is becoming world class. Tom Court is playing at a level above any Irish loosehead in the 00s. Dave Kilcoyne is an uncut diamond who's terrific around the park and okay in the scrums. He's now playing at a level similar to Marcus Horan but is quickly improving. Jack McGrath is somewhere between Court and Kilcoyne - a solid scrummager who'll get his hands dirty in open play. Healy, McGrath and Kilcoyne are still improving. Court was a latecomer to the game and could play on at a high level for another 3 years. Then there's Paddy McAllister, Callum Black, Denis Buckley and Brett Wilkinson, all solid club players. Ireland are in a much better position at 1 than they have been for a very long time.

3 is an issue, no doubt about it. Mike Ross is clearly the best option but has shown signs of wear and tear recently. Declan Fitzpatrick is okay but can't stay fit. Stephen Archer is closing the gap on BJ Botha but i feel that has more to do with the Springbok regressing than with a marked improvement in Archer's ability. Ronan Loughney is a really bad player (he's okay at loosehead though). Michael Bent seems to be out of his depth at the moment. Jamie Hagan on form is next in line. That people are talking about Ricky Lutton after a handful of appearances shows how badly off Ireland are at 3 at present. I think Ireland will go to the next World Cup with Mike Ross and a newly qualified Nathan White as stopgap tighthead options. Beyond that, I have hope that Martin Moore, Tadhg Furlong and Jamie Hagan can pick up the baton and be better than what has gone before.

One thing that shouldn't be lost in all this is the impact Simon Best's retirement had after 2007. He shipped a lot of undue criticism but was a really good 3. Had he contiinued in the game, he would have replaced John Hayes three years earlier than Mike Ross eventually did.