Scotland v Ireland, 24/02/13

[munstermuffin]

McFadden was not poor but wasn't good last time he got few runs in 6 Nations. Again I think if it fair call on form then I won't argue. Like people call for Reddan to start against France and that'd be bad call. He did fine when he came on fresh against a tired and poor Scotland team. It not the same and I'd say his form has been poor for Leinster that some might say Boss is in better form

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'd much rather have Mcfadden than Fitz. He's been in good form for Leinster and has never had a bad game for Ireland with Earls, in form or not being picked ahead of him. I prefer him in the centre but he's more than up to it at wing.

Can I ask you why exactly? I can see Luke's flaws as a winger (mainly his lack of try scoring), but he's by far and away one of the most skilled backs in the country. Having him in the team effectively gives us another centre, which is something that could be very valuable considering we have Luke Marshall (21) and a young 10 in the team. I think with himself and Gilroy on the wings you get a nice contrast.

McFadden on the other hand lacks the top 5% to be an international winger. He just doesn't have any really outstanding feature. He'll be behind LUke for Leinster next year, that's for sure.

 

[Amiga500]

Like people call for Reddan to start against France and that'd be bad call. He did fine when he came on fresh against a tired and poor Scotland team.

Aye, cos Murray was physically exhausted jogging up behind the rucks, standing around for 10 seconds, then throwing the ball out to the nearest single forward for the 1 out drive. (And repeat)

 

[nosevi]

Oh I haven't posted a GIF with O'Gara here...ever. Got me mixed up with someone else...

Got it. You 'quoted' snoopy's GIF of O'Gara's cock up earlier, I saw it but not the fact it was a quote, thought you had thrown it up. Anyway, no issues just thought it was a good "this isn't the way to do it" demo.

 

[munstermuffin]

Aye, cos Murray was physically exhausted jogging up behind the rucks, standing around for 10 seconds, then throwing the ball out to the nearest single forward for the 1 out drive. (And repeat)

I never mentioned Murray

 

[Peat]

Fergus McFadden is not an outstanding international winger, but he is a better winger than Neil Jenkins was a full-back. You should not be going out into an international without a quality goalkicker. It's a crazy thing to do. Once he'd settled on Jackson as a fly-half, McFadden should have been brought into the starting line-up. Or, you know, pick one of the fly-halfs who's more ready for it.

As for Toner - yeah, he's not much use except in the lineout, but O'Callaghan isn't providing masses of worth either. I'd stand by that being a viable option. And certainly Henderson for any of the back row - or even O'Callaghan himself - would have improved the line-out while providing absolutely no harm around the pitch. Will be interesting to see if Tuohy is parachuted straight back in now that he's fit as I feel Ireland's second row is fairly ineffective at the moment; not helped by the loss of the main tight five ball carrier (in hindsight, Kilcoyne over Court would have been a smart call) and the complete lack of balance in the back row - you can't have O'Brien as main carrier at 7 with no one really following up the ball carrier.

 

[Big Ewis]

Got it. You 'quoted' snoopy's GIF of O'Gara's cock up earlier, I saw it but not the fact it was a quote, thought you had thrown it up. Anyway, no issues just thought it was a good "this isn't the way to do it" demo.

right, I actually got it later when I was out of the house like "oh right, I did quote that Ogara GIF, he must've thought I posted it myself" dunno why it didn't cross my mind earlier...anyways.
Yeah ! He was obviously trying some sort of a genius moment there, had the pressure of some Scot on him, forgot about the passing option and went for a kick-pass in stead to open it up...I get it, but with the hindsight we have as spectators viewing the full field, it looks completely incredible he'd attempt that !! :lol:
and then that shiitty pass on the last play out left.....

 

[irelandfan123]

Yeah McFadden looks like the better option at twelve I thought apart from two good runs Marshall looked a bit rough around the edges threw a few bad balls and kicked it when Ireland where in a pressure situation when he should have really dropped on it. I think Marshalls intention is to move to ten, read an interview about him wanting to start twelve like carter and move in so putting him 21 looks like the best move for him. Also I'm not sure bringing Madigan in would steady the kicking either as he isn't first choice kicker yet. Jackson really needs to be front line kicker, you'd think that Kidney would be able to force Anscombe to give Jackson at least the shorter kicks as he did pretty well at the start of the season.

 

[Amiga500]

I never mentioned Murray

You said that Reddan only looked good because he was fresh, ergo you infer that Murray was somehow exhausted from his exertions and couldn't take advantage of the same "tired and poor" Scotland team 2 mins before Reddan came on.

Murray has always had a slow pass, doesn't read the game well and his box kicking technique was always shocking. None have improved and do not look like improving in the near term. He should be dropped. Might give him the kick up the hole to work harder on improving these problems.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Can I ask you why exactly? I can see Luke's flaws as a winger (mainly his lack of try scoring), but he's by far and away one of the most skilled backs in the country. Having him in the team effectively gives us another centre, which is something that could be very valuable considering we have Luke Marshall (21) and a young 10 in the team. I think with himself and Gilroy on the wings you get a nice contrast.

McFadden on the other hand lacks the top 5% to be an international winger. He just doesn't have any really outstanding feature. He'll be behind LUke for Leinster next year, that's for sure.

He's one of my favorite players but I don't understand why people say he's not up to it at international level. He's had eight starts for Ireland and eight sub appearances (Some of them being Kidney's "I'll give you two minutes appearances) and has scored four tries. In 2011 Earls was injured and Fitzgerald was fullback so McFadden played on the wing for the first two matches, He played brilliant against France scoring a try and was dropped and didn't feature for Ireland again. He's a solid defender and is better in attack than he is given credit for and is a brilliant passer of the ball when that's needed.

Obviously he also has goal kicking which is important for this side and had he had the opportunities Earls had against Scotland we'd definitely have had one of those tries if not both.

I'd like to have Fitzgerald ahead of Earls but I like McFadden better and think he's a better player. He's the most underrated player in Irish rugby and is not liked by Kidney I don't think so.

 

[big ginger 8]

My super awesome team for the France match:

1. Kilcoyne: could be even more damaging for the scrum but the most like Healy. Hopefully Healy's appeal is successful
2. Best: despite poor throwing he's still the same player. Up against a lineout just as tough Cronin needs to be used if he fails.
3. Ross: pretty clear he can't last the full match anymore Fitzpatrick needs to be trusted from about 65 minutes on.
4. O'Callaghan: who else? Being playing well anyway.
5. Ryan: needs to have a bit of a talk with PO'C about calling otherwise best available though feel he needs a bit more power for scrum.
6. Henderson: better lineout option then PO'M also more powerful for the close in carries we favour.
7. O'Brien hopefully the others can get somewhere near his level.
8. Heaslip: keep tackling like he is and show the same improvement in his carries. Don't think his leadership is as easy to assess as some people seem to think.
9. Reddan: experienced, less prone to panic and quicker service than Murray.
10. Jackson: as O'Shea said once you pick him you've got to stick with him. Was alright in general play relieve him of goalkicking duties and touchfinders from penalties on the right.
11. McFadden: solid player would rather Fitzgerald but his goalkicking is needed. Doggedness could be useful.
12. Marshall: one of the positives from the Scotland game.
13. O'Driscoll: big performance needed.
14. Gilroy: has been solid we need him to be exceptional would like him to come infield more. Work on wrong footing Basteraud.
15. Kearney: feel he has being improving every game needs to feed it up a lot.

16. Cronin: would like to see him actually get some gametime. Lethal against tired legs.
17. Court: not overly poor could be useful off the bench. Bring him on with Cronin to even things up.
18. Fitzpatrick: see Ross
19. Toner/Tuohy: one or the other both have plus' and minuses'
20. O'Mahony: pace could be important when game opens up.
21. Marshall: not entirely sure about this not on great form IMO but has shown he's good off the bench.
22. Madigan: if things were done right he's be there from the start. Would like him to get plenty of gametime.
23. Fitzgerald: come on with Madigan.

Of course this won't happen anyway.

Yeah McFadden looks like the better option at twelve I thought apart from two good runs Marshall looked a bit rough around the edges threw a few bad balls and kicked it when Ireland where in a pressure situation when he should have really dropped on it. I think Marshalls intention is to move to ten, read an interview about him wanting to start twelve like carter and move in so putting him 21 looks like the best move for him. Also I'm not sure bringing Madigan in would steady the kicking either as he isn't first choice kicker yet. Jackson really needs to be front line kicker, you'd think that Kidney would be able to force Anscombe to give Jackson at least the shorter kicks as he did pretty well at the start of the season.

He's been kicking over McFadden and Nacewa.

 

[munstermuffin]

You said that Reddan only looked good because he was fresh, ergo you infer that Murray was somehow exhausted from his exertions and couldn't take advantage of the same "tired and poor" Scotland team 2 mins before Reddan came on.

Murray has always had a slow pass, doesn't read the game well and his box kicking technique was always shocking. None have improved and do not look like improving in the near term. He should be dropped. Might give him the kick up the hole to work harder on improving these problems.

No my point was more this isn't how Reddan has played lately in green or Blue. If Murray is dropped I'd be happy as we have HEC QF but my point is our problem is players that aren't performing, their alternatives are in worst form

 

[Peat]

Marshall at 10 would be madness. We've got another two very bright stars - three if you count McKinney who I imagine would move home at the drop of a hat - who can play 10 in Ulster alone, and something of a paucity in 12 options, a position in which he is clearly ridiculously talented. That is something only magnified through Ireland as a whole. If he really said that, its needs to be quashed fiercely as the early symptoms of the earlsitis disease it is.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

8. Heaslip: keep tackling like he is and show the same improvement in his carries. Don't think his leadership is as easy to assess as some people seem to think.

Did anyone see at one of Ireland's late penalties yesterday where Heaslip hadn't a clue what to do and O'Driscoll came over to tell them what to do? I didn't really think his captaining was poor until then, as a captain you have to make a decision, be it right or wrong, with conviction otherwise the players will lose a bit of faith when they see their captain is struggling.

 

[munstermuffin]

Heaslip is a very poor captain which frustrates me at times as he has been with some of the best and seems to learned little. Cullen for Leinster BOD for Ireland POC for Munster and Ireland all try keep on to the ref and put questions in a refs head. Heaslip seems to just accept what the ref says and leaves. Howlett is similar here but captaincy is having the mind games with a ref. I not saying abuse etc but challenge his decisions at times offer a defense and make him think.

 

[big ginger 8]

Heaslip is a very poor captain which frustrates me at times as he has been with some of the best and seems to learned little. Cullen for Leinster BOD for Ireland POC for Munster and Ireland all try keep on to the ref and put questions in a refs head. Heaslip seems to just accept what the ref says and leaves. Howlett is similar here but captaincy is having the mind games with a ref. I not saying abuse etc but challenge his decisions at times offer a defense and make him think.

I dunno refs seem to like him which I think is a good thing. Captaincy I feel is a very hard thing to evaluate unless you're actually playing under the player. No one criticises the captain when you win. Robshaw was criticised in the Autumn now he's a lot of people's favorite to captain the Lions.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I dunno refs seem to like him which I think is a good thing. Captaincy I feel is a very hard thing to evaluate unless you're actually playing under the player. No one criticises the captain when you win. Robshaw was criticised in the Autumn now he's a lot of people's favorite to captain the Lions.

Robshaw was critcised for bad decisions but at least he made them. Heaslip needs to grow into the role fast or else give it up.

 

[Amiga500]

No my point was more this isn't how Reddan has played lately in green or Blue. If Murray is dropped I'd be happy as we have HEC QF but my point is our problem is players that aren't performing, their alternatives are in worst form

Except for the obvious fact Reddan came on and provided quicker sharper service off the rucks, which both gave the backline more space and meant we had more forwards as running options as fewer had to secure the ruck due to a slow scrumhalf dallying.


The alternatives are not in worse form. It would be hard for any scrum-half to do much worse than Murray right now. He consistently boots the box kick 5-10 metres too far and consistently f**ks about delaying at the ruck, encouraging counter rucks and allowing setting of defensive lines.


I don't get the idea that he played well in his primary duties against either Wales or England. It was slow service then too. It is amazing that a 9 that was brought up watching Stringer play could be so slow and ponderous in getting passes away. [In fact, if I solely wanted to win the France game, I'd consider Stringer ahead of Murray! - But obviously that is not exactly building for the future]

 

[munstermuffin]

Refs like Heaslip because he's too nice and doesn't give grief. But he needs to find the right balance and just gives the impression that he isn't comfortable in role.
As for 9 debate I hope Murray is benched as we need him for HEC but if Reddan starts then that is bad because he is pushing on and well it'd be like ROG, he isn't in form and he played well for what 10mins so what he's had chances before and has never sealed the jersey. I'd much prefer Boss who is in form, can even be ok with Marshall as he's the future or be OTT and get McGrath in. But I still think Murray offers us the best package.
And for what it worth Stringer has played a lot more with a lot more slower service but made up with the pass over the years if you truly watched Munster as our pack was more often than not slow at getting it back and offering options

 

[big ginger 8]

Refs like Heaslip because he's too nice and doesn't give grief. But he needs to find the right balance and just gives the impression that he isn't comfortable in role.
As for 9 debate I hope Murray is benched as we need him for HEC but if Reddan starts then that is bad because he is pushing on and well it'd be like ROG, he isn't in form and he played well for what 10mins so what he's had chances before and has never sealed the jersey. I'd much prefer Boss who is in form, can even be ok with Marshall as he's the future or be OTT and get McGrath in. But I still think Murray offers us the best package

I'm sorry mm but I can't agree with any of this. Also how can you mention McGrath over Marmion and Reddan's situation is nothing like RO'G's