Who should host The 2023 Rugby World Cup

[TRF_heineken]

Let's be honest. France and Ireland are behind the eight ball and need to find as many ways as possible to poke holes into the evaluation process to stand a chance of wrestling the bid from the recommendation of South Africa. They need to plant seeds of doubt in the voters and discredit the process. I'm in no doubt that had France or Ireland gained preferred bidder status, that South Africa would do the same.

Any report that puts Ireland on the same safety level as France or South Africa should raise eyebrows but, as TRF_heineken said, these safety issues didn't stop SA from hosting the 2010 FIFA World Cup.

The spectre of less than full stadia in SA is another area to try pick holes in the recommended bid. I'm sure the FFR and IRFU are pointing out that the stadium for the Currie Cup final was 1/3 empty along with the paltry crowds for Super Rugby and Pro 14 games. How does SARU propose to fill these magnificent stadiums for games like Georgia versus Canada? While World Rugby get nothing from gate receipts (as far as I'm aware) they won't want to see their blue riband event showcased around the world in half full stadia.

The question is how the ticketing would be distributed? And how many tickets would be allocated to the local fans, and of course the big question is the pricing. But again, to use the FIFA World Cup 2010 as an example. All the matches as far as I know were sold out.

The issue of the empty seats this year shouldn't be a tool of measurement. Our Economy took a big knock this year, and we are recovering just barely. And with last year's poor performance by the Boks, it's inevitable that fans won't necessarily go to each and every game.

But look at the 2017 Super Rugby final, that was at Ellis Park, in Joburg. it was sold out and it was the highest attendance ever for a Super Rugby Final. I think the final tally was just above 66 000 people at the game.

 

[RedruthRFC]

The spectre of less than full stadia in SA is another area to try pick holes in the recommended bid. I'm sure the FFR and IRFU are pointing out that the stadium for the Currie Cup final was 1/3 empty along with the paltry crowds for Super Rugby and Pro 14 games. How does SARU propose to fill these magnificent stadiums for games like Georgia versus Canada? While World Rugby get nothing from gate receipts (as far as I'm aware) they won't want to see their blue riband event showcased around the world in half full stadia.

Very interesting post. I didn't realise that World Rugby doesn't benefit from ticket sales. If that's the case and World Rugby's compensation comes from the payment made by the host nation, I'm much more content about the idea of South Africa holding the event. Your question about putting bums on seats is very valid. I know that tickets were close to given away to residents for the 2010 World Cup. A repeat would be a big step in the right direction for the RWC.

 

[User1245]

Why?

What are the parameters with regard to safety when hosting such an event?

I've had the privilege to attend Fifa World Cup matches, as well as B&I Lions tour matches, I was even one of the attendees at Soweto when the Boks played against the AB's and we were 90000+ strong.

Not at any stage did I feel threatened, or unsafe. And that includes the Stadium, The hotel and the bar/restaurants.

I think using our Crime rate is unfair, because I will again stress the fact that when you are a tourist coming to SA, nobody expects you to go to the shoddiest areas in South Africa and look for trouble. During all the previous tournaments we've hosted, we went the extra mile with regard to safety and security to the players, and the fans coming to our shores. Hell, we were the first country to introduce the FIFA courts during the tournament in order to expedite issues relating to tourists during the tournament.

I'm not saying SA is as safe as Ireland, or even France. But with all due respect, I have lived in SA for 32 years, I have lived in Pretoria, Johannesburg and Polokwane, I have never been held at gunpoint, been mugged, murdered, raped or violently assaulted. I sleep like a rock at night, even with twins in the same room.

You're absolutely right, SA have successfully hosted many big sporting events for cricket, rugby and soccer without much incident. You've got to tip your hat to the police force (or to the criminals for not biting the hand that feeds them) in that regard

Doesn't change that the fact SA is not as safe as Ireland and France.
Ireland and France are mostly safe with pockets of bad areas, where SA is mostly unsafe with pockets of good areas. It's all about restricting your movement between the safe pockets. You don't have to do this in first world countries. Yeah sure sticking to the tour buses and the secured areas will keep you safe but this behaviour is not normal.

I of course want SA to host the WC but I'm calling a spade a spade.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Qatar?

(Only joking!)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I even think the argument that because the games are going to be in the large cities so it's safer is weak. According to this business insider article ( https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/most-violent-cities-in-the-world-2017-4 ) three of the host cities are among the most violent 50 in the world and I can't imagine any of the other five beat Dublin in this regard. The recommendation ranked them all equal because France and SA said that they'd host a safe competition, when Ireland said that they'd implement better technology in their stadia it wasn't accepted and we were assessed on the state the country is in now. If the bids were to be assessed on the current state of the potential host, and literally no bidding for any major tournament is, France would really the only viable host, if it were based on what has been promised Ireland would have been the best as we matched up favourably everywhere but infrastructure and security, the recommendation used a bit of both and it turns out the nation that offered the most money were considered the best. Shocker.

The more I've read into this recommendation, the more I think it's seriously questionable and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[MikeTheNative]

The football word cup was there not long ago, maybe I'm forgetting but I don't recall a problem with safety or violence against the fans over there.

 

[unrated]

To paraphrase what has been said already, talking a moonlit stroll around Soweto is seriously bad for your health, which is why statistically South Africa is high up on "most dangerous" lists, but as rugby supporters won't be doing this we need a more intelligent way of measuring safety which is tailored to the situation we're discussing. I would want to understand how World Rugby's report reached its conclusion before writing it off as incompetent and biased.
.

This sums it up better than I could explain.
Let's say a tourist comes for 3 games.
Cape Town , Durban , Johannesburg.
From the airport whether that's Cape Town International or O.R Thambo (JHB) people would never need to go out of the cities to do anything rugby related including their accommodation and when traveling to outlying areas for other tourist activities such as watching wildlife you will also find no problems unless you are seriously negligent like keeping your car keys in the ignition and leaving it unattended (example of negligent behaviour). There is violent areas for example Mitchell's plain outside Cape Town where there is nothing rugby related, nothing tourist related. Just a low income area with a high crime rate and gang violence. These places exist but only if you go out of your way to visit them (on humanitarian grounds?) then the safety risk increases dramatically.
Most of us stay and commute through the cities with the relative safety you would find in big cities. But Because some South Africans are very paranoid about safety the industry has become a big business with private security almost on every corner. It's the biggest private security industry in the world. Basically this serves as a deterrent for most crimes and a backup just in case there is a problem.
You will be pretty safe as a tourist that really should not be the reason that people are questioning the safety of the country.

 

[unrated]

Shocker. No bias there. None at all.


Help me out here. Which one is it? Either they are as safe as Ireland or they have areas tourist shouldn't visit. You can't have it both ways.


When you have hundreds of thousands people visiting, well, it is not only possible but also reasonable and expected for some of them to get lost, take the wrong bus, make the wrong turn and that increases the chances of ending up in what you called "areas they won't and shouldn't be visiting". In Ireland the safety concern for that potential outcome is negligible, in RSA it is not.



For the record, again, i don't really care where the world cup takes place. I care about common sense, facts and rational thought. Saying RSA is as safe as Ireland lacks the 3.

Why can't you have it both ways? That's how it is. The areas that will have nothing to do with the World Cup should not be taken into consideration . You should view it from a tourist/spectator perspective.

They would seriously need to make some consecutive errors in judgment to get there.
Remember because of The segregation of Apartheid they built the townships and certain Neighbour hood very far out of town. So you will have to drive like 15+km to get there.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Why can't you have it both ways? That's how it is. The areas that will have nothing to do with the World Cup should not be taken into consideration . You should view it from a tourist/spectator perspective.

They would seriously need to make some consecutive errors in judgment to get there.
Remember because of The segregation of Apartheid they built the townships and certain Neighbour hood very far out of town. So you will have to drive like 15+km to get there.

I don't think the issue is that South Africa isn't going to be safe, it's that it isn't as safe as Ireland. How many of your cities would you say a fan or two could drunkenly stumble out of a pub close to the stadium or the stadium itself, proceed to take a few wrong turns and be in little to no danger of getting hurt or robbed? The only stadium in Ireland's bid that there'd be the slightest risk of that happening, and it is slight, is Croke Park which is near a few rougher areas of Dublin. I don't think anyone could make a believable argument that South Africa is as safe as Ireland and yet we scored equal on safety and security because the bid informed the board of the measures they'd take to make it a safe tournament. When Ireland did the same thing with infrastructure, where you couldn't make an argument that ours is better than yours but we informed the board that measures would be taken to make it worthy of a World Cup we got crucified. Its a huge inconsistency in the bid that really brings its reputability in to question.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I use examples, and personal experience in what has happened in the past when we hosted major events, yet, some like you still hammer on our crime rate.

Maybe, just maybe, because your personal experiences might be biased and statistics tend to eliminate such bias. Dunno, just saying.

I could tell stories of wonderful times i'd had/have in Bs As, but while i was enjoying those, statistic say more people were being robbed in Bs As than in Dublin.

 

[User1245]

Why can't you have it both ways? That's how it is. The areas that will have nothing to do with the World Cup should not be taken into consideration . You should view it from a tourist/spectator perspective.

They would seriously need to make some consecutive errors in judgment to get there.
Remember because of The segregation of Apartheid they built the townships and certain Neighbour hood very far out of town. So you will have to drive like 15+km to get there.

Would you hang around Ellis Park after a match?

 

[AM_Bokke]

Would you hang around Ellis Park after a match?

I personally would yeah. Maboneng Precinct seems like one of the most interesting places in South Africa. I love re-used, post-industrial urban districts. During an event like a world cup I would imagine that the security presence would also be significant.

 

[The Jones Boy]

The hard part for Ireland is that it doesn't have the Stadia, just like New Zealand. A small population and only a few big stadiums. I don't have a problem with that but I can see the money men having an issue wit it. It was hard enough for the biggest brand in rugby to get the rest of the Union world to vote NZ into a hosting role (24 years between drinks) and I don't see it happening again in my life time.
SA are overdue another opportunity, but it would be nice to see ireland get a crack at it because apart from the Stadia (and the weather of course) it's a pretty country and the people are friendly.
The food is great (if you like potato ;-) ) and the beer is ... well there's always Guiness.
In terms of security for the punters, it's clearly far safer than current day South Africa.
I'd be happy for one to follow the other.
Ireland would be fresh and new and SA would be visiting a traditional home filled with history and passion.

Ireland would suit the northern hemisphere teams, SA would suit the southern hemisphere teams.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Would you hang around Ellis Park after a match?

Haven't you??

I was there last year when we got that come-from-behind win against Ireland. We partied until midnight at the stadium's beer tent, and had live performance artists keeping us entertained.

Then we walked back to our cars and went home.

SA have come a long way with regard to public transport, security and to some extent human decency. All the major cities that will be hosting venues, have a very good public transport system, where the stadiums are specifically targeted as a drop-off/collection point. I was in Pretoria recently, and their new shuttle service was just amazing! In some streets these shuttle services have their own drive lanes in the street.

But just to get back to the whole crime thing. I think our murder/rape stats, shouldn't be part of the topic, as those mostly happen in rural areas, and it's usually same race violence. As for the tourists, their biggest worry should be muggings in the streets or at other places. But again, I need to stress that you have to be pretty drunk, stupid and alone to be a target. Most of these petty crime thieves are cowards, and if you are part of a group that might show some resistance, they'll back off.

During the 2009 B&I Lions tour, myself and my brother went together to the Loftus test, and afterwards went to Hatfield Square (ah the good ol' days). The square was packed! everywhere there were Saffas and Lions supporters sitting together, having a chat, drinking alcohol and having a good time. And afterwards, they all left, and there wasn't any incident that I know of a tourist being a victim of a crime.

Maybe I am bias. But maybe, just maybe, because I live here, and because of my proffession, I have a better understanding of what is going on in my own damn country, than what foreigners are making out who hasn't even been to South Africa!!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Haven't you??

I was there last year when we got that come-from-behind win against Ireland. We partied until midnight at the stadium's beer tent, and had live performance artists keeping us entertained.

Then we walked back to our cars and went home.

SA have come a long way with regard to public transport, security and to some extent human decency. All the major cities that will be hosting venues, have a very good public transport system, where the stadiums are specifically targeted as a drop-off/collection point. I was in Pretoria recently, and their new shuttle service was just amazing! In some streets these shuttle services have their own drive lanes in the street.

But just to get back to the whole crime thing. I think our murder/rape stats, shouldn't be part of the topic, as those mostly happen in rural areas, and it's usually same race violence. As for the tourists, their biggest worry should be muggings in the streets or at other places. But again, I need to stress that you have to be pretty drunk, stupid and alone to be a target. Most of these petty crime thieves are cowards, and if you are part of a group that might show some resistance, they'll back off.

During the 2009 B&I Lions tour, myself and my brother went together to the Loftus test, and afterwards went to Hatfield Square (ah the good ol' days). The square was packed! everywhere there were Saffas and Lions supporters sitting together, having a chat, drinking alcohol and having a good time. And afterwards, they all left, and there wasn't any incident that I know of a tourist being a victim of a crime.

Maybe I am bias. But maybe, just maybe, because I live here, and because of my proffession, I have a better understanding of what is going on in my own damn country, than what foreigners are making out who hasn't even been to South Africa!!

Do you think SA is as safe as Ireland?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Do you think SA is as safe as Ireland?

I won't be able to say, as I've never been to Ireland. It would be irrational of me to make a connection between the two. I've also not been to France, so I won't make that connection either.

I have however been to the USA, and based on what I observed there, it's more or less the same as in SA en the urban areas.

 

[collace]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41909635


Ireland have written to World Rugby querying some of the issues around the recommendation. The letter can be viewed here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/08_11_17_irfu_letter.pdf

In essence:

• Risks were noted in relation to potentially empty stadia for South Africa but were not reflected in the scoring. All were scored the same for this criteria yet significant risks have been identified i.e. large stadiums which may not be filled.
  
  
• In 2015 and 2019 an independent security organisation was used to review the underlying security situation within each bidding nation. It seems that has not happened this time, why not?
  
  
• Durban was stripped of hosting the Commonwealth Games in 2022 due to "key obligations and commitments in areas such as governance, venues, funding and risk management have not been met". Was any due diligence carried out in relation to this in the context of awarding the RWC?
  
  
• In the 2015 and 2019 bids Barclays were appointed to conduct an independent sovereign risk assessment relating to funding guarantees from each bid. It's not clear that this happened as part of this process. Given that South Africa's credit rating is BB+ (i.e. not good) was this taken into account as part of a risk based evaluation?
  

An interesting footnote is that the weightings and scoring criteria were only made available to bidding countries on 31 October.

The view is that Ireland's scoring has suffered unreasonably. A larger list of queries will be sent but these are the headline issues.

 

[TRF_heineken]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41909635


Ireland have written to World Rugby querying some of the issues around the recommendation. The letter can be viewed here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/08_11_17_irfu_letter.pdf

In essence:

I was wondering when someone would post this. So let's break it down.

• Risks were noted in relation to potentially empty stadia for South Africa but were not reflected in the scoring. All were scored the same for this criteria yet significant risks have been identified i.e. large stadiums which may not be filled.

Again, I need to point out, that all of the 2010 Fifa World Cup games were filled/sold out
2017 Super Rugby final held at Ellis Park, broke the record for highest attendance for a Super Rugby Final.
They are comparing apples with oranges. Trying to say that the low attendance this year for domestic matches will be the reason why we won't fill our stadiums. Which is false. Every time there is an international Event we sell the tickets.

I am personally going to try and buy a ticket for every game at Loftus Versfeld to take my son, who will be 6 in 2023, to experience it the same way me and my father did in 1995. I was privileged to watch the Scotland vs. France game then.

• In 2015 and 2019 an independent security organisation was used to review the underlying security situation within each bidding nation. It seems that has not happened this time, why not?

Wasn't an independant organisation used to look at the whole prospectus this time around? Not just the security issues?

• Durban was stripped of hosting the Commonwealth Games in 2022 due to "key obligations and commitments in areas such as governance, venues, funding and risk management have not been met". Was any due diligence carried out in relation to this in the context of awarding the RWC?

What does this have to do with SARU? The Commonwealth games falls under athletics SA and SASCOC, which did not actively participate in the 2023 RWC bid, nor with any of SARU's dealings and obligations.

SASCOC has been a problematic organising body for years now, everyone knows that. Luckily SARU can operate on its own. And did in this instance.

Trying to point at problems that has no significance whatsoever on our bid.

• In the 2015 and 2019 bids Barclays were appointed to conduct an independent sovereign risk assessment relating to funding guarantees from each bid. It's not clear that this happened as part of this process. Given that South Africa's credit rating is BB+ (i.e. not good) was this taken into account as part of a risk based evaluation?

Barclays would have a biased view this time around. Barclays has shares in ABSA Bank, on of SA's biggest banks, and up to 2015 was the main sponsor of the Springboks. Perhaps the reason they didn't do an assessment, is because it might have been a skewed assessment.

An interesting footnote is that the weightings and scoring criteria were only made available to bidding countries on 31 October.

The view is that Ireland's scoring has suffered unreasonably. A larger list of queries will be sent but these are the headline issues.

It seems to me that there's a lot of sour grapes, yet the voting hasn't even begun yet. Are people really counting chickens before they have hatched or are these remarks by France and Ireland an attempt to making the drinking water a little bit more murkier???

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The letter was published in the Irish Times and was very cordial, well thought out, and simply made queries asking for clarification on the far from transparent aspects of the report, I'll link it if anyone wants to read and can't find it.

Heineken, do you really think 40,000 people will go to a potential clash between Canada and Romania or Tonga v Uruguay? England's RWC worked very well for these games because of the smaller stadia and festival atmosphere, can that really be replicated in SA? The Fifa World Cup is the biggest tournament in the world and should be incredibly easy to sell out attracting far more tourists and even then a quick wikipedia search would suggest that all the games weren't sell outs until the quarter finals with Uruguay v South Korea getting 30,000 people in the Nelson Mandela Bay stadium (42,000 capacity); Germany v England getting 40,000 in Free State Stadium (46,000) and Paraguay v Japan getting 36,000 in Loftus (51,000). These fixtures are incomparably bigger than most of the pool games in a RWC, Germany v England in a World Cup is arguably the most anticipated fixture in football whenever it occurs, so ts definitely a concern there and one would imagine it should have been taken into consideration.

Laporte is going mad, he's now attacking the report for docking the French marks because their drug testing is too strict, quite fair to be honest, and I reckon its playing into Ireland's hands, the report is being discredited left right and centre but anyone deviating from it won't want it to go to that mad man and will likely vote for Ireland. I could be clutching at straws but odds on us getting this thing are crawling back down from 5/1 the day of the report to 3/1 today.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The letter was published in the Irish Times and was very cordial, well thought out, and simply made queries asking for clarification on the far from transparent aspects of the report, I'll link it if anyone wants to read and can't find it.

Heineken, do you really think 40,000 people will go to a potential clash between Canada and Romania or Tonga v Uruguay? England's RWC worked very well for these games because of the smaller stadia and festival atmosphere, can that really be replicated in SA? The Fifa World Cup is the biggest tournament in the world and should be incredibly easy to sell out attracting far more tourists and even then a quick wikipedia search would suggest that all the games weren't sell outs until the quarter finals with Uruguay v South Korea getting 30,000 people in the Nelson Mandela Bay stadium (42,000 capacity); Germany v England getting 40,000 in Free State Stadium (46,000) and Paraguay v Japan getting 36,000 in Loftus (51,000). These fixtures are incomparably bigger than most of the pool games in a RWC, Germany v England in a World Cup is arguably the most anticipated fixture in football whenever it occurs, so ts definitely a concern there and one would imagine it should have been taken into consideration.

Laporte is going mad, he's now attacking the report for docking the French marks because their drug testing is too strict, quite fair to be honest, and I reckon its playing into Ireland's hands, the report is being discredited left right and centre but anyone deviating from it won't want it to go to that mad man and will likely vote for Ireland. I could be clutching at straws but odds on us getting this thing are crawling back down from 5/1 the day of the report to 3/1 today.

Oh yeh Laporte is doing Ireland massive favours bashing SA whilst also burning bridges with World rugby. Don't blame him for going mad it's prob the last chance France has of hosting rugby IMO.

Interesting point re the venues never thought of it like that for some reason but the atmosphere at the RWC in 2015 where great because they were all sold out even a small ground can sound loud with a sold out game.

I really don't see SA selling out many matches TBH.