2013 British and Irish Lions

[UlsterRugby2012]

Don't know what's with the sudden Sexton out Farrell in..

 

[McTallshort]

Don't know what's with the sudden Sexton out Farrell in..

Me either to be honest, test shirts still Sextons IMO

 

[SelimNiai]

Don't know what's with the sudden Sexton out Farrell in..

Not sure about that but its more Sexton in the 10 shirt isnt as nailed-on as it was pre 6N

 

[Feicarsinn]

Not sure about that but its more Sexton in the 10 shirt isnt as nailed-on as it was pre 6N

An angle that hasn't really been explored as of yet is the issue of how much rugby Leinster are willing to give Sexton over the coming months. Considering he's off to France at the end of the season the coaching staff may well decide to give the starting 10 berth to Ian Madigan so as to have him primed for next season when he'll be our starting 10. If that's the case Johnny10 could find himself somewhat out in the cold. When you look at the damage not getting regular game time has done for Gethin Jenkins' chances of starting you'd wonder if it could become an issue, especially if Farrell continues to improve.

 

[psychic duck]

An angle that hasn't really been explored as of yet is the issue of how much rugby Leinster are willing to give Sexton over the coming months. Considering he's off to France at the end of the season the coaching staff may well decide to give the starting 10 berth to Ian Madigan so as to have him primed for next season when he'll be our starting 10. If that's the case Johnny10 could find himself somewhat out in the cold. When you look at the damage not getting regular game time has done for Gethin Jenkins' chances of starting you'd wonder if it could become an issue, especially if Farrell continues to improve.

Gethin Jenkins isn't getting regular game time because he was on very poor form and on his first Toulon start was destroyed by Cencus Johnston at scrums, yellow carded, and quickly replaced and turned into a bench player behind Sheridan.

It's not Gethin Jenkins has been on very poor form because he isn't getting regular game time, the poor form came first. He also had a pretty average (by his standards) tour of Australia in June. And was part of a Cardiff Blues scrum alongside Scott Andrews which got pummelled by all comers for the last few months of his time at the Cardiff Blues.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Oh look it's that Gethin Jenkins debate again ...

 

[Draggs]

Oh look it's that Gethin Jenkins debate again ...

Man the harpoons.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Put Gethin at 9, problem solved.

Could we teach him to be a hooker?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I'll have some of what your on mate! Sexy's a top top player, and I fail to see what Farrell at this moment in time has that Sexton doesn't. Whether it's his huge tackles allowing his back-row to win turnovers, top class distribution, or attack of the gain-line, he's a team player who enables a back-line to flourish which is the only reason why nobody would attach the adjective 'mercurial' to him.

Why hasn't he had the opportunity to play against any of the SH teams yet? Do the coaching panel not trust him?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Why hasn't he had the opportunity to play against any of the SH teams yet? Do the coaching panel not trust him?

He has, on a number of occasions. He was our starting 10 in our most recent victories over both South Africa and Australia.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sexton is easily frontrunner for the 10 shirt, imo.
Farrell's recent performances, while not better than Sexton, make me feel a lot better about the idea of him on the bench.

 

[big ginger 8]

http://youtu.be/y6ci3yl4330

Why can't I embed any more?

 

[dullonien]

Whilst I agree that Sexton may not be as nailed on a starter as he was pre 6 nations (due to a combination of Farrell improving and Sexton being a little average + injury), but imo Sexton is still the best option by quite some distance. Farrell is improving at quite a rate, and would do a good job, but his main weapon is his goal kicking, but we've got just as good a kicker available in Halfpenny, so Farrell's goal kicking doesn't have to really influence the debate. Sexton's kicking is by no means poor either, just not quite as good as some of the truly remarkable kickers currently available to the Lions (Farrell, Halfpenny and Biggar to name 3).

A dark horse in this debate could actually be Biggar. He's matured hugely over the last season or so, and if the Welsh team really do kick on from their win in Paris, he could really shine as he has done so many times for the Ospreys. He looks guaranteed to start the remainder of the 6 nations games (he's never had a run of games in a Welsh shirt before), so he could force his way into the reckoning. I think his skill-set isn't too dissimilar from what Farrell offers (although his defence is probably weaker). We've gotta remember that there's only a couple of years between Biggar and Farrell, just seems like Biggar's been around for an age already (especially at regional level). If Gatland decides to take three 10's, Biggar could sneak in, especially considering the lack of game time Hooky is getting (could still provide an excellent utility bench option mind).

 

[Peat]

Farrell is improving at quite a rate, and would do a good job, but his main weapon is his goal kicking, but we've got just as good a kicker available in Halfpenny, so Farrell's goal kicking doesn't have to really influence the debate. Sexton's kicking is by no means poor either, just not quite as good as some of the truly remarkable kickers currently available to the Lions (Farrell, Halfpenny and Biggar to name 3).

Intriguing.

I'd submit you - and virtually everyone else - overrate Farrell's kicking and somewhat underrate Sexton's. Certainly, the Six Nations statistics would seem to think so for they say

Sexton - 6 attempts, 6 goals; 100pc
Laidlaw - 10 attempts, 9 goals; 90pc
Halfpenny - 8 attempts, 7 goals; 87.5pc
Farrell - 14 attempts, 11 goals; 78.57pc

Last year Halfpenny was on 91.3pc, Farrell 88.46, Sexton 88 and Laidlaw 76.92. Domestically, Sexton is on 90.32, Halfpenny on 90pc, Laidlaw 88.24 and Farrell is on 80.65.

Farrell's goal kicking has dropped significantly since last season. He still has a history of making the pressure kicks, but has fallen to pieces a couple of times this season for Sarries. Conversely, Sexton is on fire at the moment, and has a long established history of kicking excellence at the top level. If you selected the Lions fly-half by goal kicking right now, it would be Sexton, no questions - although as you point out, considering the Lions could easily select a full-back (or indeed a scrum-half) who's a very talented front-line international goal kicker, there's absolutely no need to.

 

[Aedaphon]

Intriguing.

I'd submit you - and virtually everyone else - overrate Farrell's kicking and somewhat underrate Sexton's. Certainly, the Six Nations statistics would seem to think so for they say

Sexton - 6 attempts, 6 goals; 100pc
Laidlaw - 10 attempts, 9 goals; 90pc
Halfpenny - 8 attempts, 7 goals; 87.5pc
Farrell - 14 attempts, 11 goals; 78.57pc

Last year Halfpenny was on 91.3pc, Farrell 88.46, Sexton 88 and Laidlaw 76.92. Domestically, Sexton is on 90.32, Halfpenny on 90pc, Laidlaw 88.24 and Farrell is on 80.65.

Farrell's goal kicking has dropped significantly since last season. He still has a history of making the pressure kicks, but has fallen to pieces a couple of times this season for Sarries. Conversely, Sexton is on fire at the moment, and has a long established history of kicking excellence at the top level. If you selected the Lions fly-half by goal kicking right now, it would be Sexton, no questions - although as you point out, considering the Lions could easily select a full-back (or indeed a scrum-half) who's a very talented front-line international goal kicker, there's absolutely no need to.

Although I'm almost certainly biased in Farrell's favour, haven't pretty much all of Sexton's goals been easy kicks from right in front of the posts?

 

[dullonien]

Intriguing.

I'd submit you - and virtually everyone else - overrate Farrell's kicking and somewhat underrate Sexton's. Certainly, the Six Nations statistics would seem to think so for they say

Sexton - 6 attempts, 6 goals; 100pc
Laidlaw - 10 attempts, 9 goals; 90pc
Halfpenny - 8 attempts, 7 goals; 87.5pc
Farrell - 14 attempts, 11 goals; 78.57pc

Last year Halfpenny was on 91.3pc, Farrell 88.46, Sexton 88 and Laidlaw 76.92. Domestically, Sexton is on 90.32, Halfpenny on 90pc, Laidlaw 88.24 and Farrell is on 80.65.

Farrell's goal kicking has dropped significantly since last season. He still has a history of making the pressure kicks, but has fallen to pieces a couple of times this season for Sarries. Conversely, Sexton is on fire at the moment, and has a long established history of kicking excellence at the top level. If you selected the Lions fly-half by goal kicking right now, it would be Sexton, no questions - although as you point out, considering the Lions could easily select a full-back (or indeed a scrum-half) who's a very talented front-line international goal kicker, there's absolutely no need to.

You might be right. I think every time I've seen Farrell play, his kicking has been exemplary, so I kinda assumed he's always like that. I do think everyone can have off days though. I've Halfpenny have a game where he's missed some simple kicks, but most others where he nails everything from all over the place. The same with Biggar, who has had the odd game where he's fallen to pieces for whatever reason, but then he goes and slots some insanely high pressure kicks from the touchline against Leinster in Pro12 finals etc. and is usually about as good a kicker as you'r likely to see.

I also agree that Sexton is a very, very good goal kicker, but I've never thought of him as one of the best available (like I do Halfpenny). I've seen Sexton miss a few relatively easy ones for Ireland (missed at least one against Wales in last years 6 nations). But then as I said before, that happens to every kicker in the world on occasion. I would probably have Halfpenny as the main kicker for the Lions regardless of who's at 10. My only problem with doing that is that sometimes a 10 can really gain confidence and momentum in a game when he's kicking well (or similarly lose confidence is kicking poorly I suppose), and taking that away can sometimes effect a 10's overall performance. I honestly believe that one of the factors in Priestland's loss of form was the collapse of his goal kicking. During the world cup, he was kicking well and that boosted his all round confidence and bled through to the rest of his game, when this started to struggle, his all round game also struggled (Nicky Robinson always struggled with this as well). When the kicking duties were taking off him, he no longer had a way to regain that confidence, whereas if he'd kept the goal kicking duties he might have landed a belter early on in a game and the confidence would have come flooding back.

It was the right decision to hand Halfpenny the kicking duties still, but it is a possible issue in taking the kicking duties away from Sexton or Farrell. I'm maybe over thinking this, I'm not sure.

 

[Peat]

Zebo and Healy both scored their tries closer to the corner flags than the sticks, so Sexton most definitely hasn't had all gimmes so far this tournament.

Dull, I rather doubt Farrell has been exemplary in every game you've seen him play. I take it you watched England - Ireland? 66pc success rate. The last one was definitely gettable. Difficult conditions, pressurised conditions, yes, but that is not what I would call exemplary and I rather doubt you would either although I accept we have different standards. I think it more likely though that you've a picture of Farrell in your mind, remembered that kicks were the difference and the ones he got weren't walks in the park, and forgot the two he missed. The media talk about Farrell the great goal kicker and it sticks, even for those of us who are rightfully wary, partially because he is a rather good goal kicker. But he is leaving points on the pitch at the moment and that may come back to haunt us at some point; not one of the off-days that happen to every kicker, just his standard current percentages. If Leicester finish a point or two ahead of Sarries and pick up a home semi-final, people will remember his awful goal kicking performance at Wembley.

And I totally agree with you on goal kicking form feeding into and away from confidence for 10s; personally, I'd minimise risk and hand the goal kicking duties elsewhere when possible. I don't get the fixation with kicking 10s anyway; it's already close to the most important position in the field, why do we load extra responsibility onto it? Why insist on compromising our choice of the best possible performer for the role by insisting he must also excel in another role? Halfpenny for 15 and goal kicker it is. In fact... what's the lad's leadership like?

 

[psychic duck]

Kicking isn't all about percentages (as more difficult kicks would distort those anyway). But it's about who's got the bottle in key moments.

For example, Brock James holds the Top 14 record for consecutive kicks. But he choked in the Heineken Cup quarter final in 2010 in a match Clermont should have won. Wales in the World Cup semi final against France is another case of a team without bottle and missing kicks and running away from drop goals.

From what I've seen. Farrell is a player who has bottle in key moments. See the Italy game in 2012, just contrast the way Farrell struck his kicks compared to the Italian kicker which was Botes or Burton I don't remember. That was in the end the difference in the game.

I also remember Farrell had one of the best performances of goal kicking there's been against Racing-Métro recently where he slotted a record 10 penalties from all over the pitch.

And I totally agree with you on goal kicking form feeding into and away from confidence for 10s; personally, I'd minimise risk and hand the goal kicking duties elsewhere when possible. I don't get the fixation with kicking 10s anyway; it's already close to the most important position in the field, why do we load extra responsibility onto it? Why insist on compromising our choice of the best possible performer for the role by insisting he must also excel in another role? Halfpenny for 15 and goal kicker it is. In fact... what's the lad's leadership like?

I agree. I think many teams just automatically make the 10 a kicker out of convention because it's usual. But I think it would make more sense to focus the 10 on 10 duties and get more full back/wingers/centres goal kicking.

But you do need a very good goal kicker somewhere in the team, whatever the position. So that may mean that a less good open play wing/full back might have to come in. Argentina notably failed to fit a first class goal kicker in their team in favour of the best open play players, and it cost them a RWC match with England and the RC drawn match with SA.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So that may mean that a less good open play wing/full back might have to come in.

See: Tom Homer's career.

 

[Crapspray]

Aren't we getting into the areas of lie, damned lies, and statistics? One could easily pull out the 11/11 against Racing Metro, or the 27 kicks in a row in the Heineken Cup. Is he the best kicker out there? Probably not. Can you rely on him to kick 80-90% against any opposition? I'd say more so than anyone else.

The media talk about Farrell the great goal kicker and it sticks, even for those of us who are rightfully wary, partially because he is a rather good goal kicker. But he is leaving points on the pitch at the moment and that may come back to haunt us at some point; not one of the off-days that happen to every kicker, just his standard current percentages.

True. Though, I think it's a bit early in the tournament to be able to absolutely conclude that now. He certainly didn't live up to standards this time last six nations, but went on to kick all but two in the last three games, if my memory serves me correctly.