[2014 EOYT] Wales vs New Zealand

[donmcdazzle]

If it came down to that choice then I'd have to leave out Piuatu. Jane can cover both sides of the wing with confidence, and has experience at fullback as well. In my opinion, and without delving into any deep and meaningful stats, he is our best winger outside of Savea. Different skill set than Savea, but still very good in his own right. Slightly better ariel skills than Piutau, and more confident in general? Seems to score plenty of tries.

I think Piutau is our second best winger. He was fantastic on the weekend. He can also play fullback bloody well. I don't think 4 first fives is needed at all, especially given the versatility of Ben Smith and Piutau.

It will of course depend on injuries and to a lesser extent form in Super XV, but you would have to think if they take Carter + Cruden they'll only take one of Barrett/Slade (Barret foe me is ahead of Slade). Or if Cruden/Carter gets injured then you would only need one of Barrett/Slade and you could fit in Piutau and Jane (or whichever players are in form).

It's so funny how public perception works and how short memory's are. I read the comments on stuff and people act as though Slade has been coming on and winning us games for years.. He was one Nic White brain explosion, and one Fekitoa break and try away from being the new Stephen Donald, missing touch and costing us a game against Aus. Forgive me if I am a little sceptical on him being an automatic selection for the world cup squad.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

We had at least 3 opportunities in the first half which were just as good as anything the All Blacks created. Second half is a different story.

Nobody is sick of us losing so closely to the southern H teams. Sam didn't say he was certain we would win, i'm sick of trolls misquoting people. He said we can win, and yes we can. Of course we can, we have proved were good enough, but haven't managed to do so as of yet. Same thing with England, don't see us complaining about you going on about.

Stop posting in this thread, you have nothing to contribute. Poor form

Erm, I think he was posting his opinion? I agree that Sam wasn't being arrogant but rather was just trying to encourage his team.
There's a need to differentiate between what the media/ex players are saying and what the current players are saying. To be fair, the Welsh media is pretty mad in some of the things it comes out with. Scrum V desperately tries to perpetuate the idea that Wales are just serially unlucky. Meanwhile as I said on another thread, Gareth Thomas literally said, without misquoting, we were unlucky not to lift the trophy in New Zealand. You, also, must try and condede that from an Irish and English perspective, it's pretty galling to be repeatedly told by the media and posters such as yourself and the public, that Wales are more talented, despite the evidence of years worth of results and shortcomings?

As I said, none of this is on the players; its a media problem which becomes self-reinforcing because it inflates the Welsh publics expectation.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

We had at least 3 opportunities in the first half which were just as good as anything the All Blacks created. Second half is a different story.

Nobody is sick of us losing so closely to the southern H teams. Sam didn't say he was certain we would win, i'm sick of trolls misquoting people. He said we can win, and yes we can. Of course we can, we have proved were good enough, but haven't managed to do so as of yet. Same thing with England, don't see us complaining about you going on about.

Stop posting in this thread, you have nothing to contribute. Poor form

Nope you just don't like me voicing an opinion which you don't like to hear. It is up to the moderators to tell me to stop posting in a thread, not you. I am not trolling to get a reaction from Welsh fans, just telling it how it is.

Please name the 3 opportunities Wales had in the first half to score, other than the try they did score. It will be interesting to re watch it again. As I saw it they were rarely within the ABs 5 metre try line, other than the Webb try.

England have their own problems v the SH sides. Two losses so far this Autumn and the scores flattered them and I am not confident about next week's game v Australia. But still at least we can point to more than 1 win v the SH sides in 22 attempts. Wales can't. It was just silly hearing Webb talking about the ABs being there for the taking and Wales just needing to get stuck into NZ like Scotland did, Halfpenny talking about Wales needing to believe could win and even now Sam saying he is certain Wales will win v the Springboks if they put in the same effort as they did v the ABs.

Only Ireland, so far, have really come out with much credit this Autumn.

 

[ENZED-88]

We had at least 3 opportunities in the first half which were just as good as anything the All Blacks created. Second half is a different story.

Nobody is sick of us losing so closely to the southern H teams as us Welsh. Sam didn't say he was certain we would win, i'm sick of trolls misquoting people. He said we can win, and yes we can. Of course we can, we have proved were good enough, but haven't managed to do so as of yet. Same thing with England, don't see us complaining about you going on about it.

Stop posting in this thread, you have nothing to contribute. Poor form

When did wales prove they were good enough to win?

 

[Mikel92]

I think Piutau is our second best winger. He was fantastic on the weekend. He can also play fullback bloody well. I don't think 4 first fives is needed at all, especially given the versatility of Ben Smith and Piutau.

It will of course depend on injuries and to a lesser extent form in Super XV, but you would have to think if they take Carter + Cruden they'll only take one of Barrett/Slade (Barret foe me is ahead of Slade). Or if Cruden/Carter gets injured then you would only need one of Barrett/Slade and you could fit in Piutau and Jane (or whichever players are in form).

It's so funny how public perception works and how short memory's are. I read the comments on stuff and people act as though Slade has been coming on and winning us games for years.. He was one Nic White brain explosion, and one Fekitoa break and try away from being the new Stephen Donald, missing touch and costing us a game against Aus. Forgive me if I am a little sceptical on him being an automatic selection for the world cup squad.

Yeah it's probably a bit early to be posting our own world cup squads, as so much will depend on Super Rugby form as you mentioned. Nobody really has brought it up but I see when Perenara came on he was extremely slow yet again. The ref actually had to tell him to use it a few times I think.

I take your point about Piuatu, and he is a very talented man with that ball in hand. I guess for me, Jane has a few things on his side. Three different positions is very handy, he has a bit more experience, and is one of the safest options in World Rugby under the high ball imo. Him, Dagg and Ben Smith are brilliant at that. Possibly a better kicking game than Piutau? Dunno if that's a fair point or not. But Piutau seems to get injured less often? so that's always good haha. I guess we'll see. I think you make some fair points about him though.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

When did wales prove they were good enough to win?

 

[Draggs]

Nope you just don't like me voicing an opinion which you don't like to hear. It is up to the moderators to tell me to stop posting in a thread, not you. I am not trolling to get a reaction from Welsh fans, just telling it how it is.

Please name the 3 opportunities Wales had in the first half to score, other than the try they did score. It will be interesting to re watch it again. As I saw it they were rarely within the ABs 5 metre try line, other than the Webb try.

England have their own problems v the SH sides. Two losses so far this Autumn and the scores flattered them and I am not confident about next week's game v Australia. But still at least we can point to more than 1 win v the SH sides in 22 attempts. Wales can't. It was just silly hearing Webb talking about the ABs being there for the taking and Wales just needing to get stuck into NZ like Scotland did, Halfpenny talking about Wales needing to believe could win and even now Sam saying he is certain Wales will win v the Springboks if they put in the same effort as they did v the ABs.

Only Ireland, so far, have really come out with much credit this Autumn.

That's why one does best to ignore what a player says postgame. What do you want them to say? "I don't think we have a chance next week either, so the boys might as well not bother".

 

[inteNZity]

I think Barrett clouds the picture by increasing his value when the game opens up, I have lived thru many world cups were I have watched and waited for our game breaker to "turn it on" as the clock ticked by, opposition teams didn't open up and we lost, in 2011 we weren't waiting for a game breaker we were watching solid reliable skilled men battle out 10 mins of trench warfare, no chip kicks, no cross kicks...... I'm a fan of Barrett but its starting to get that feel about it.
as for SBW, I think Ma'a would have coped with that rush defence better, Sonny will learn from this, but it has crossed my mind that if Cruds and Ma'a had started we might be saying how ineffectual the welsh rush defence was.

 

[Jbobo]

Erm, I think he was posting his opinion? I agree that Sam wasn't being arrogant but rather was just trying to encourage his team.
There's a need to differentiate between what the media/ex players are saying and what the current players are saying. To be fair, the Welsh media is pretty mad in some of the things it comes out with. Scrum V desperately tries to perpetuate the idea that Wales are just serially unlucky. Meanwhile as I said on another thread, Gareth Thomas literally said, without misquoting, we were unlucky not to lift the trophy in New Zealand. You, also, must try and condede that from an Irish and English perspective, it's pretty galling to be repeatedly told by the media and posters such as yourself and the public, that Wales are more talented, despite the evidence of years worth of results and shortcomings?

As I said, none of this is on the players; its a media problem which becomes self-reinforcing because it inflates the Welsh publics expectation.

Spouting out 'facts' which are clearly untrue, being completely anti Welsh throughout the thread (look at previous posts) and being outright offensive. There is a difference between constructive opinion and being a troll.

Regarding Thomas, well he isn't the best pundit and he doesn't express his thoughts very well. You are not misquoting him, but you're picking the bits that help your argument like when you mentioned it earlier. You're taking his comments out of context. The exact quote was 'We were unlucky in the last world cup, very unlucky not to lift the trophy in New Zealand, we could have pushed New Zealand all the way', i see you missed out the part where he states that we would have pushed them, not beat them. I tend to agree, that we would have been one hell of a match, better than we were last night. Plus, what do you expect from a former Welsh captain, most capped and top try scorer ever, on a Wales rugby show. Stunning how you can mention all of this in the Welsh media, but not of the English media? They have some pundits who are insanely biased.

I can udnerstand where your coming from in terms of being told have more talent than Eng/Ireland, but this is not without merit. Yes Wales have stagnated, but we have out performed Ireland and England generally in tournaments previous to this year. Both teams have a poor record against the SH teams (Ireland shattered that this month) so i don't see how you can sit there and talk of our shortcomings when we are ultimately the most successful NH side since and including the last world cup. It has changed recently, but does not discount the opinion that Wales have a strong squad, and in some peoples opinions, a better side than England. Ireland have gone into a new gear.

I'm a bit sick of the constant barrage of references to England's win in 2012 against a poor All Blacks side, suddenly they are the favourites for everything for some people. This is two way, maybe think about that yourself too.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

We both know the English media gets worked up too; I treat it as a given, to be honest, it doesn't change the facts about the Wales media. In any case, rarely do I see English journalists rating our team as highly as the All-Blacks. What charactersies English journalism is an intense pressure of expectation - but to their credit they don't abstractedly just compare our guys to the best and suggest we're very close. I know this is only wales online but perhaps it's taken its cue from opinion somewhere..

I'm not taking Thomas' views out of context, since there is literally no relevant context which would qualify that comment - the fact that he said unlucky not to have lifted it, even if qualified by saying 'pushed them all the way', changes nothing., He's still there or thereabouts making the assertion that Wales would have been good value for a world cup win which is already an inflated sense of how well you did at the world cup which, frankly, we have all heard a lot about since 2011.

Again, you quote exactly the statistics I expected you to regarding Wales and it doesn't change my opinion.Yes, 'most sucessfull' team by championships blah blah blah, but actually in terns of games won in the six nations, you're not the most successful team, in the last 4 years or in the last 10 years. To allege that you are, inspite of the facts, not to mention poor performance against the south, is to pick you evidence highly selectively which is incidentally what you excuse me of.

And perhaps the Irish are sick of you're patronising 'Ireland have gone into another gear' which is a highly convenient way for you to explain away their success without conceding that they're a better side.

By the way, where is this barrage of references to Englands win in 2012? I don't see it - even if it exists, please don't apportion mass blame to the majority of us who have said nothing of the kind.

 

[Larksea]

talk about awkward...

 

[Draggs]

I thought Barrett was awful. Nothing he did went right, until the last 15. Kicking is erractic (same with Cruden), he didn't know when to pass, kick, run, and when he did he made a hash of it. Might have been an off-game, but neither Cruden nor Barrett are pushing to start ahead of Carter when fit.

Slade has always been a decent player. I think some people forget that his years in the wilderness weren't because he was dire, but because of his awful run of injuries.

SBW was also out of it, Roberts outshone him, but they play different roles within the team really. We don't have big ball-carrying forwards like Read, so Roberts plays the role. Lydiate leaves much to be desired around the park. Warburton exceptional, really classy player. Faletau had a slight case of the drops, but he is very good behind a retreating scrum. I wish he had a better pack to play with at club level. What was with James? Three pens in a row, a word from Barnes, and then no more issues.

Lineout is still tragic. Is it the thrower, jumper, lifter? I say all of the above. We have gone through many hookers in the last five years (Rees, Bennett, Williams, Burns, Hibbard, Owens) so it isn't solely that. Part of the issue stems from the fact neither of our locks are really lineout-types. For the Ospreys, Bernardo has run the lineout this season, while I cannot comment on the Scarlets, but I have seen Kelly, Snyman, Earle all used. Charteris hasn't had his 2011/12 for since that time period, and I worry about him starting. Davies isn't much of a lineout guy either, while Evans is done. Our only up-and-coming locks are in the U20 right now... Can we find out Bernardo has a Welsh nan?

 

[Jbobo]

We both know the English media gets worked up too; I treat it as a given, to be honest, it doesn't change the facts about the Wales media. In any case, rarely do I see English journalists rating our team as highly as the All-Blacks. What charactersies English journalism is an intense pressure of expectation - but to their credit they don't abstractedly just compare our guys to the best and suggest we're very close. I know this is only wales online but perhaps it's taken its cue from opinion somewhere..

I'm not taking Thomas' views out of context, since there is literally no relevant context which would qualify that comment - the fact that he said unlucky not to have lifted it, even if qualified by saying 'pushed them all the way', changes nothing., He's still there or thereabouts making the assertion that Wales would have been good value for a world cup win which is already an inflated sense of how well you did at the world cup which, frankly, we have all heard a lot about since 2011.

Again, you quote exactly the statistics I expected you to regarding Wales and it doesn't change my opinion.Yes, 'most successful' team by championships blah blah blah, but actually in terns of games won in the six nations, you're not the most successful team, in the last 4 years or in the last 10 years. To allege that you are, inspite of the facts, not to mention poor performance against the south, is to pick you evidence highly selectively which is incidentally what you excuse me of.

And perhaps the Irish are sick of you're patronising 'Ireland have gone into another gear' which is a highly convenient way for you to explain away their success without conceding that they're a better side.

By the way, where is this barrage of references to Englands win in 2012? I don't see it - even if it exists, please don't apportion mass blame to the majority of us who have said nothing of the kind.

Skipped the rest as this is the first thing that caught my eye - Look at my post again, i said It has changed recently, Ireland have shattered their poor SH record and that this is because Ireland have gone into another gear. Ireland are currently the better team for sure. Individually up to now i believe Wales have had the most talented side, this again i have said is changing and i think Ireland are showing exactly what they have got and have just started to really tap into. I also said that in my opinion Wales have more talent then England, where did i say the same about Ireland? Again, things change and if you're only as good as your last match or campaign, i'd say Ireland are by far the best in the NH and Wales and England have both been poor.

The rest of your post...Blah probably not worth the effort since you're unable to make a balanced argument. but i'll give it a go. Thomas's comments were made with context, he was stating that performances like that against Fiji were unacceptable because this Wales team should have moved on from being the team which chokes and cannot get itself up to beat lower teams more comfortably, which i agree with. He was stating that the performance at the world cup, which included a 60-0 victory of Fiji should be consistent and is saying it is not good enough to not. He emphasized this point by noting Wales's closeness to getting to the final, regardless of a Red carded Captain after about 20 mins against france and Halfpenny's missed goal kick. If we want to be as good as the best, we have to be as clinical as them. We simply are not yet.

The point you're making about the inflated sense of how well we did at the world cup is baffling when you see how people's reactions to England's victory against the AB's in 2012 (one year after the world cup) made them genuine contenders for the next world cup 3 years later! We are still hearing many on here saying recently that England and Sa are the only team which can challenge the All Blacks, despite not backing up any performance since.

I don't care if the statistics i quote not changing your mind, it is you who is saying that you're sick of hearing me say that Wales can beat England. Which is true, and proven not too long ago. Our performances against the SH have not been poor in general, but definitely not good enough. Although everyone is sick of it, including the Welsh so badly, we are still plucky losers, this is because we perform well but can't get over the line. It has been comically consistent in that regard. The point is, you can;t sit there and say England have been more successful than Wales when they have won nothing ultimately. I would probably take beating SH sides over Six nations championships, but I bet you wouldn't be snubbing England if they could win the thing. You know you have to actually win games to win grandslams. Who's the one that's actually being highly selective here? You're contradicting yourself.

I don't have to scroll though the huge amount of threads to quote people referring to England's win in 2012, just go look at the thread itself, it's full of comments and i have seen it aplenty to an annoying scale since. I said some people, not all of you. Stop misquoting me, when did i blame the mass majority of you?

Edit - Caught the rest of the post after.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I can udnerstand where your coming from in terms of being told have more talent than Eng/Ireland, but this is not without merit. Yes Wales have stagnated, but we have out performed Ireland and England generally in tournaments previous to this year. Both teams have a poor record against the SH teams (Ireland shattered that this month) so i don't see how you can sit there and talk of our shortcomings when we are ultimately the most successful NH side since and including the last world cup.

How exactly have you out performed Ireland? If I recall you've been taken apart the last 2 years, with the year before that being extremely lucky to win in Dublin by avoiding the most obvious red card ever. (Also don't think the winning kick was a penalty). Year before you won from a try that should have been disallowed. I would hardly call that 'out performing'.

Also, Irelands' record against the SH isn't too bad, last 6 vs SA has landed 4 wins for Ireland and last 7 vs Australia has results in 3 wins a piece and one draw. Of course there's NZ, but Wales' record is exactly the same so it doesn't matter. (although we've had 2 very close games recently..)

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I wondered how long it would take people to patronise Wales, fair play just over 24 hours. Well played lads, well played.

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

I thought Barrett was awful. Nothing he did went right, until the last 15. Kicking is erractic (same with Cruden), he didn't know when to pass, kick, run, and when he did he made a hash of it. Might have been an off-game, but neither Cruden nor Barrett are pushing to start ahead of Carter when fit.

Slade has always been a decent player. I think some people forget that his years in the wilderness weren't because he was dire, but because of his awful run of injuries.

SBW was also out of it, Roberts outshone him, but they play different roles within the team really. We don't have big ball-carrying forwards like Read, so Roberts plays the role. Lydiate leaves much to be desired around the park. Warburton exceptional, really classy player. Faletau had a slight case of the drops, but he is very good behind a retreating scrum. I wish he had a better pack to play with at club level. What was with James? Three pens in a row, a word from Barnes, and then no more issues.

Lineout is still tragic. Is it the thrower, jumper, lifter? I say all of the above. We have gone through many hookers in the last five years (Rees, Bennett, Williams, Burns, Hibbard, Owens) so it isn't solely that. Part of the issue stems from the fact neither of our locks are really lineout-types. For the Ospreys, Bernardo has run the lineout this season, while I cannot comment on the Scarlets, but I have seen Kelly, Snyman, Earle all used. Charteris hasn't had his 2011/12 for since that time period, and I worry about him starting. Davies isn't much of a lineout guy either, while Evans is done. Our only up-and-coming locks are in the U20 right now... Can we find out Bernardo has a Welsh nan?

There is no one factor, more a law of average when nobody is a lineout specialist.

Alun Wyn is a solid lineout jumper, but we need someone who takes more on themself- It's not a coincidence that our periods of good results came alongside top lineout forwards such as Charteris and Yanto being in grand form. We rely on non-specialist jumpers such as Warburton, Faletau and Lydiate too much. However, it's not worth switching one of these players for a stronger lineout back row forward, such as Shingler or King. The hooker does make a big difference, though- With Ken playing, I feel our lineout is passable. He's a good thrower, which takes one potential problem out of the equation. There were two yesterday which were almost certainly down to overthrows, rather than anything else, although that is by no means the only source of the problem. Regardless, these are issues that should be worked on by both club and international coaches. It's a primary source of ball, and we can't use it at the moment.

I'm not sold on Bernardo. The Ospreys lineout, with him taking the majority of the ball on himself, on Friday night was even worse than Wales' on Saturday. He strikes me as solid enough, but not the ball-farting lineout magician Yanto, the man he is replacing, was on his day.

And on the point of patronising Wales, I'm nowhere near going 'Good effort', though I have mellowed a lot over the last 30 hours. Then I was furious at the players and felt they'd destroyed the right to take any pride or credit in their work over the first 70 minutes. Now I'm merely disappointed.

 

[psychic duck]

We both know the English media gets worked up too; I treat it as a given, to be honest, it doesn't change the facts about the Wales media. In any case, rarely do I see English journalists rating our team as highly as the All-Blacks. What charactersies English journalism is an intense pressure of expectation - but to their credit they don't abstractedly just compare our guys to the best and suggest we're very close. I know this is only wales online but perhaps it's taken its cue from opinion somewhere..

There's a large element of the Welsh rugby fan base that doesn't really like or understand rugby, think every fly half should be Barry John, drone on for the 60 millionth chance for Hook to play 10, never watch the regions, and with a silly jingoistic 'as long as we beat the English' attitude that characterises little irrelevant village nations. Large amounts of the Millennium Stadium will be as such, particularly in recent times with World Cup runs and 30-3 wins bringing this sort out in force. WalesOnline just influences/plays to this with idiot clickbait journalists and embarrasses the nation.

If you thought that All Blacks was bad, I recommend you don't look up the chest thumping post-Lions 2013 WalesOnline ratings comparison between Gatland's Wales and the 2003 World Cup winning team ... or the top 20 international sides of all time clickbait that rates Gatland's Wales ahead of the 2005 All Blacks and a World Cup winning Springbok team. They are a laughing stock, best to either just ignore or mock their stupidity.

There's idiots in every nation's media, and many **** journalists among them. But as a single production, WalesOnline has got to be up there as the worst.

 

[Jbobo]

How exactly have you out performed Ireland? If I recall you've been taken apart the last 2 years, with the year before that being extremely lucky to win in Dublin by avoiding the most obvious red card ever. (Also don't think the winning kick was a penalty). Year before you won from a try that should have been disallowed. I would hardly call that 'out performing'.

Also, Irelands' record against the SH isn't too bad, last 6 vs SA has landed 4 wins for Ireland and last 7 vs Australia has results in 3 wins a piece and one draw. Of course there's NZ, but Wales' record is exactly the same so it doesn't matter. (although we've had 2 very close games recently..)

Notice that i said of late Wales have stagnated and i said previous to this year. Again, people taking my comments out of context for their own gain.

Wales beat Ireland to get to world cup Semis and then in 2012 for the Grandslam and then although we lost the first game against Ireland, we went on to win the tournament whilst Ireland came 5th...If you're going to say that Wales were extremely lucky in 2012 to beat Ireland and win the Grandslam, then i can say Ireland were extremely lucky to beat Wales in 2009. It's all arbitrary really.

I repeat one more time. IRELAND HAVE TAKEN THEIR PLACE AT THE TOP as a result of this year's stunning performances.

 

[psychic duck]

I'm not sold on Bernardo. The Ospreys lineout, with him taking the majority of the ball on himself, on Friday night was even worse than Wales' on Saturday. He strikes me as solid enough, but not the ball-farting lineout magician Yanto, the man he is replacing, was on his day.

There's not much you can do when your hooker couldn't hit a barn door. The lineout stats have been up considerably this season without supposed 'lineout magician' Ian Evans, a player who never really reached his potential, partly through injury, partly through just being a bit dull.

 

[Jbobo]

Please name the 3 opportunities Wales had in the first half to score, other than the try they did score. It will be interesting to re watch it again. As I saw it they were rarely within the ABs 5 metre try line, other than the Webb try.

Only Ireland, so far, have really come out with much credit this Autumn.

1. There was an opportunity where Roberts took on two defenders and nearly had the offload to Biggar who would have been through relatively unopposed -Half chance.

2. When Wales got the overlap and Cuthbert took took it into the 22, slight knock on from Halfpenny and we had forward ready with players available left. Half chance

3. Davies' kick out of ruck which North just needed to get a boot on or pick up to be home and dry with no Fullback and about 15 metres away from any other player - Try scoring chance butchered.

4. Warburton's break but only had a 2nd row on his right, great opportunity which would have been taken by the All blacks.

If you ignore the last 10, you see that Wales did make some good line break but could not control the set piece at all which costed us huge amounts of possession and momentum.

Again, never have i said we should have won but we did create chances numerous chances. It was our dismal set piece which costed us huge momentum and possession. Everything else, i'm pretty happy with. Ahtough we should have been more clynical in attack, but again our set piece cost us a lot too.

to note - there are probably more chances, but i'm not watching the whole thing again to prove a point to you.