[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs. Wales (12/03/2016)

[Thingimubob]

Anyway this is so last week, time to look forward to the France game. Wales enjoy your dead rudder against Italy.

Classy that

We were. Or I was at least. The only other hope we had was that Jones was trolling us by including him in the EPS in the first instance and he'd never even warm the bench.

Wouldn't put it past Jones seems like he's he likes a good troll!

The number of incidents is irrelevant. There is no concept of team citings / bans like there is with yellow cards during a match each incident of potential foul play is assessed individually on its merits. As I understand it, the process is that if the citing officer believes that an incident was worthy of a red card, the incident will be referred to the citing commission who will decide if they agree and apply what they believe to be an appropriate ban.

In Marler's case, it doesn't appear that is was believed that either incident would have resulted in him being red carded, so due process has been followed. Seeing as Francis' actions (apparently) didn't merit a red, it seams reasonable that neither of Marler's would have. Saying that, I don't think that Joubert's performance should be a barometer for the game as a whole. However in this instance, you could argue that this process is flawed. I think that most would agree that both of his transgressions were worthy of a yellow card. Had both incidents been spotted and cards been handed out, Marler would have received a red and copped at very least a one week ban.

The Brown incident has been done to death elsewhere. My memory of the discussion was that if you were an English supporter, Murray shouldn't have been holding on, if you support anyone else, Brown was trying to maim Murray! I like to think that I'm able to be pretty objective in situations like this and have tried to use the laws / guidelines to try to aid this. In this situation, the laws aren't all that helpful - all they say is "though shalt not kick an opponent" and prescribe a penalty kick (obviously the referee has cards at his discretion, but the laws give not guidance as to when to use them). The foul play guidelines don't really deal with this kind of incident, they give sanctions for stamping and trampling, but from memory, this requires a deliberate downward motion of the boot onto an opponent. All of this being the case, I don't see it as a clear red card offence and don't know what sanction they could have applied had he been cited, so once again can make my peace with the decision.

All a matter of opinion I guess. I don't personally agree with the decisions, and think the "whether or not it's a red card" way of looking at incidents is all that correct, especially considering I've seen people get banned for doing yellow card worth stuff that gets missed during the match. Think Dan Carter copped a one week ban after a high tackle he did against us a while back? Not worthy of a ban at all really imo, but got it because the ref missed it and (surprise surprise ) us Welsh kicked up a fuss. Seems silly that that incident, or Finn Russell's ban last year were deemed worthy enough for bans, but Marler's incident haven't?

Whole system needs to be looked at as it's so inconsistent at the moment! I mean, I still haven't quite got my head round the fact that Schalk Burger only got 4 weeks for essentially performing eye surgery on Luke Fitzgerald in 2009!

Either way, what's done is done, and as you said, every incidents has been done to death on here. More than happy to agree to disagree!

 

[ThebigARena]

What the hell how did marler get away with that .. What ever happens this weekend foul play wise I don't want to hear England fans shouting for "citings"

 

[The5thOfficial]

It's not our job to get rid of racism I agree world rugby could and should have done more . Gatland never reprimands his own players ie. Mike Phillips

It isn't our 'job' agreed. But it is one of world sport's RESPONSIBILTIES to see and be seen to support the view that it is not tolerated either in sport or everyday life. Remeber SA were only invited back into the sporting fold, rugby union included once they'd got rid of apartheid. What's changed?

 

[RedruthRFC]

What the hell how did marler get away with that .. What ever happens this weekend foul play wise I don't want to hear England fans shouting for "citings"

I suspect that the answer is because this (AFAIK) is the first high profile incident of its kind, therefore there is little in the way of guidance and no precedent to guide citing officers. I have read everything that I'm aware of in the public domain and am still none the wiser as to what citing officers should have done. I imagine that (as usual) the transcript of the citing will make for interesting reading assuming it is made available (they were in the World Cup).

This weekend or any other, I will have no problem with any supporter of any country bemoaning foul play as long as they are able to explain why according to the laws and guidance given to referees it was a red card offence and what disciplinary sanction it should be dealt with under / what level sanction it deserves.

 

[Peat]

This is just going to run and run

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...stitutional-racism-after-immoral-decision-to/

And run!

I for one am absolutely delighted about a fifth consecutive day concentrating on rugby's racism and thoroughly congratulate the 6N committee for setting this turn of events rolling.

This article throws up a lot of questions for me:

- if Clipson would have reported this to the police, why hasn't she? Not saying that it would achieve anything, just that it is her right which she should exercise rather than talk about exercising it.

The article gives the answer - she didn't due to Lee clearly wishing to avoid undue publicity over this and not wanting to press charges himself.

- Was Marler forced to apologise? I recall reading elsewhere that he did so of his own volition.

Nobody knows. Only those in the England changing room at half-time would know for sure and given the circumstances, no one could trust them to tell the truth. Nobody from the RFU's going to say "Joe didn't see a problem and only apologised after we told him he'd definitely face a disciplinary hearing and maybe he didn't want to spend a long time banned".

The 6N report said he apologised unprompted but unless they had video footage of that, I'd hold that as very dubious.

- Did the apology help him avoid sanction? I understood that contrition can lead to a reduction in sanction, by can't affect the decision regarding guilt or innocence.

I haven't read the exact words the 6N released, and can't find them after a look on their website, but Marler's apology was definitely mentioned so it would seem it did so.

- Now that Gatland has taken the stance he has, was it a good idea for the WRU to contradict him?

Yes. Why wouldn't it be? Particularly since Gatland's already had to row back on his stance.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Well this whole episode is one big clusterfek.

Will be interesting to see WR and 6N's come to bouts if it happens.

 

[Maverick1987]

It isn't our 'job' agreed. But it is one of world sport's RESPONSIBILTIES to see and be seen to support the view that it is not tolerated either in sport or everyday life. Remeber SA were only invited back into the sporting fold, rugby union included once they'd got rid of apartheid. What's changed?

Nothing changes . Lancaster banned all our players for any small misdemeanour to his peril . This gave Jones the opportunity to do what most coaches have been doing for years which is let the governing body decide . NZRU did it with Savea when he got done for domestic abuse, Wales did it with Phillips assault charges as well . It's not a job of the RFU or Jones to ban Marler. England rugby isn't the police . Let world rugby decide

 

[The5thOfficial]

Nothing changes . Lancaster banned all our players for any small misdemeanour to his peril . This gave Jones the opportunity to do what most coaches have been doing for years which is let the governing body decide . NZRU did it with Savea when he got done for domestic abuse, Wales did it with Phillips assault charges as well . It's not a job of the RFU or Jones to ban Marler. England rugby isn't the police . Let world rugby decide

So let world rugby decide and not show that individual countries / nations that we can think for ourselves? That's asking for criticism from all quarters if you ask me. But hey ho.

 

[Ospreylian]

Anyway this is so last week, time to look forward to the France game. Wales enjoy your dead rudder against Italy.

We'll try our best to make it as thrilling and captivating as this old gem

 

[Peat]

Nothing changes . Lancaster banned all our players for any small misdemeanour to his peril . This gave Jones the opportunity to do what most coaches have been doing for years which is let the governing body decide . NZRU did it with Savea when he got done for domestic abuse, Wales did it with Phillips assault charges as well . It's not a job of the RFU or Jones to ban Marler. England rugby isn't the police . Let world rugby decide

Lancaster banned a grand total of two players. He took no action over being arrested on suspicion of drink driving, assaulting another player, swearing at a ref, or repeated bans after a final warning.

And it's the RFU's job to protect the public image of rugby in this country, among other things. Having a national team player go unpunished for very public racism is generally considered to be a poor look.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Lancaster banned a grand total of two players. He took no action over being arrested on suspicion of drink driving, assaulting another player, swearing at a ref, or repeated bans after a final warning.

And it's the RFU's job to protect the public image of rugby in this country, among other things. Having a national team player go unpunished for very public racism is generally considered to be a poor look.

+ 1

 

[RedruthRFC]

We'll try our best to make it as thrilling and captivating as this old gem

Bless, they have such short memories! Getting knocked out of a World Cup in your national stadium by two top eight sides is careless. Getting knocked out in your national stadium by a bunch of unheard of also rans on the other hand is really embarrassing. Good win against Argentina though!

 

[TommiG88]

All of them justified though? Again, not saying England are getting favoritism, but they've had a hell of a streak of luck not having anyone banned!

I'll agree Joubert and the TMO were idiots for not taking proper action vs Francis.

2 of them yes, Care was harshly penalised against Ireland.

More of the fact I've seen teams getting away with frequent penalties, even pulling down mauls in red zone and zilch happening.

Wales I feel have been given the rub of the green on many decisions this 6 nations. So moaning about England getting away with a few citings is meaningless. I would prefer our players got cited than miss 10mins of the match.

 

[Maverick1987]

Lancaster banned a grand total of two players. He took no action over being arrested on suspicion of drink driving, assaulting another player, swearing at a ref, or repeated bans after a final warning.

And it's the RFU's job to protect the public image of rugby in this country, among other things. Having a national team player go unpunished for very public racism is generally considered to be a poor look.

If still prefer that world rugby take charge and make the decision . This would be a very careless time to start taking the moral high ground when we have a grand slam game on the weekend . I completely understand what you guys are saying but I don't share your opinion on what Eddie and the RFU should do . I think they have done the right thing .

 

[Thingimubob]

2 of them yes, Care was harshly penalised against Ireland.

More of the fact I've seen teams getting away with frequent penalties, even pulling down mauls in red zone and zilch happening.

Wales I feel have been given the rub of the green on many decisions this 6 nations. So moaning about England getting away with a few citings is meaningless. I would prefer our players got cited than miss 10mins of the match.

Nah all 3 were justified, though Care's was given to the wrong man. Haskell cynically killed the ball after a promising Ireland attack - was a professional foul and a clear cut yellow. Just for some reason the ref decided Care did the most damage by not rolling away, which was odd considering how unsubtle Haskell's infringement was!

So because Wales scored a try that shouldn't have been given, we've had the rub of the green? I'd certainly argue that England have had more luck with the refs decision, in particular the last two games!


Haaa, just seen Eddie Jones' "WRU are trying to de-rail our Grandslam comment" :lol: If being surprised at a very controversial decision is trying to derail England, then World Rugby must be against you winning it too? Daft comment.

 

[McTallshort]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk

One for you Welsh lads still trying to keep this thread going

 

[ElRoach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk

One for you Welsh lads still trying to keep this thread going

Morning, just wanted throw in my £0.02 as I have only just joined the forum.

After this game finished, most of my feeling was relief, and I was pleased we got the win. On the other hand, my friend was next to me and was absolutely livid with England for almost losing. Interesting how we both reacted differently. I watched the game again the next day, as in all honesty, I was werry, werry, dwunk and didn't remember quite a lot of it. Here are my points:

1. When we get a penalty in their 22, we should really be backing ourselves to score a try with a strike move or a rolling maul. 16 points from that first 40-50mins was not enough. Disappointed with Hartley for not asserting our dominance on them.
2. The ref and the TMO were truly awful. Coles disallowed try, North in touch, contact with the face/eyes as a few examples. Just not good enough and I hope the ref's are told that.
3. Wales should be playing with Ball in hand more, stop this Warren ball bs.
4. The best team did win, and even if the ref's hadn't messed up so much, I still think England would have taken the game.
5. I played Tennis last night, but the cold didn't bother me anyway.

 

[ncurd]

So because Wales scored a try that shouldn't have been given, we've had the rub of the green? I'd certainly argue that England have had more luck with the refs decision, in particular the last two games!.

In Wales game alone there was a red card offence that went unpunished and I'm not entirely sure how Wales escaped the err of the yellow card in the first half considering how man penalties they were giving away. Even when Joubert did warn them it felt like it came way too late.

I have to agree in general we've been lucky on the citing front but only in regards to Marler (I still think Brown was the right decision). But that only benefits the next game in terms of not having to face that player. In game where being a man down put a team at a significant advantage/disadvantage we've coped a reasonabl about for what we've been doing but other team have got away scott free.

 

[Willodell100]

Impressed this thread is still going almost a week after the game!

Good luck to Wales v Italy. I hope it is a good open game. See you all in a B&I Lions thread some time soon.

 

[Thingimubob]

In Wales game alone there was a red card offence that went unpunished and I'm not entirely sure how Wales escaped the err of the yellow card in the first half considering how man penalties they were giving away. Even when Joubert did warn them it felt like it came way too late.

I have to agree in general we've been lucky on the citing front but only in regards to Marler (I still think Brown was the right decision). But that only benefits the next game in terms of not having to face that player. In game where being a man down put a team at a significant advantage/disadvantage we've coped a reasonabl about for what we've been doing but other team have got away scott free.

No argument from me, Francis should've had a red 100% - but equally so Marler should've had a yellow for the forearm smash on Evans during Cole's disallowed try, North shouldn't have been called in touch - etc etc. - Can argue these all day, Joubert and the TMO didn't have the best game with some of the big calls essentially.

Reason Wales didn't get a yellow in the first half is likely because the penalties were relatively broken up. If England had gone for the jugular and backed themselves for the try, rather than kicking for the posts, I'm convinced they'd have drawn a few more successive penalties and a Welsh player would've been in the bin. They never quite seemed to get the string of penalties in the red zone over a short space of time that usually leads to a card - like what happened with Cole later on.

Whether that's the right way to look at it, I don't know, but that's how Joubert seemed to manage the game anyway.

Anywho, all of this has been turned over time and time again. Well and truly time to put this thread to bed I think :lol: