• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

A great big Munster thread

If he was IQ, which it appears he is definitely not. Actively scouting schoolboy competitions for players with no connection to the country is what rankles with me. Academy spots are by nature limited, so I would much rather they take a risk on a local player they've doubtlessly seen a lot more of in Senior Cups etc. Honestly, I was not a fan of signing Parker and McCarthy because they were average speculative signings who had already represented another nation underage, but at least they're IQ right here right now and had a bit of international honours pedigree to speak of. Have heard McCarthy is unlikely to make the cut and as Muff said Parker will make some 23's, but is a squad player at best.
Wootton to be fair contacted the Irish set up and worked through the Exiles program, not to mention being a very good signing
 
A small bit of digging/stalking instagram pages tells me he's been in Ireland since early December. Means he's qualified to play for Ireland from December 2020 as he came just before the residency rule increased from 3 to 5 years.
Jesus Snoop, I wouldn't want you as an ex-girlfriend. Him being hear in December makes wayyyyy more sense from a practical point of view (not that it eases my moral objections). Looks like he was over in Sarries for some reason too.
Also pulled from his agents website
"His strong scrummaging and general high quality all-round play saw him signing for Munster towards the end of 2017."
 
Last edited:
I don't understand people going mad about this, primarily on other forums. Rugby is a professional sport. Munster have to do what's best for them and investing resources in this player may make more sense than investing it in a lesser talented Munster born player. As much as I dislike the residency rule, he could be qualified to play for Ireland at 21 and have as long and productive a senior rugby career here as an Irish born player.

Shades of Mike Kingsbeer and Jeremy Manning with this signing. Neither were qualified to play for Ireland when they arrived as 18/19 year olds from New Zealand. That was an example of Alan Gaffney believing Munster didn't have the strength in depth to maintain their level as one of Europe's elite post their golden generation and trying to do something about it. Manning proved a very worthwhile signing.

If Munster aren't producing enough talent from within, they have to be creative about where they source their players. It's inarguable that Rhys Marshall, Jean Kleyn, Chris Cloete, Conor Oliver, CJ Stander, Tyler Bleyendaal, Ian Keatley, Sam Arnold, Chris Farrell, Jaco Taute, Alex Wootton and Andrew Conway have had a major positive impact on the Munster squad despite not being born there.
 
A small bit of digging/stalking instagram pages tells me he's been in Ireland since early December. Means he's qualified to play for Ireland from December 2020 as he came just before the residency rule increased from 3 to 5 years.
Also as I add he's on an academy deal so not an NIQ slot. He's not being hyped either just being given a look. He has loads of Irish family and it is being looked at on 1 grandparent for direct link but not hopeful
 
It's also rumoured that Munster have picked up Matt More an 18 year old outside centre from South Africa.
Not finalised but 1 of 4 SA possibilities. Let's just say that the scouting programme operating in SA headed up by ex Manager and star guy Shaun Payne is working nicely
 
Matt Moore and Knox signed and well pure genius. The boys signed on Dec 29th. Had been in Ireland and both beat Dec 31 deadline
 
I dug this article out from 2005. There are parallels with the signings of Matt More and Keynan Knox.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/from-all-black-to-red-gxchqxt5l6q?t=ie

Manning, 19, had been earmarked as a future All Black, a place-kicking fly-half who had the pace to play anywhere in the back line. He was just 16 when he made his first appearance for Marlborough in the prestigious Ranfurly Shield competition — Alex Wyllie, formerly coach to New Zealand, Argentina and Clontarf, reckoned he was ready to play against a Canterbury side including All Blacks such as Norm Maxwell, Ben Blair and Sam Broomhall.

The same year, 2002, he made the New Zealand Schools side that beat Australia Schools 9-6 in Wellington, kicking all his team's points. The corresponding game the following season saw New Zealand win 18-16 in Brisbane and this time Manning scored the decisive try.

To spend two years in the New Zealand Schools team means quite a bit of time and money has been invested in you. Naturally enough, the Kiwis wouldn't let him go to Munster without a fight. Robbie Deans, coach to the Canterbury Crusaders and formerly an All Blacks assistant coach, travelled to Manning's home town of Blenheim, took him out for dinner and tried to get him to reconsider his plans. No joy.

Next, he was hauled in front of a panel of three heavy hitters at Marlborough, the second division side to whom he was contracted. Most of the talking was done by Denis Brown, the provincial coach and also the man in charge of the World Cup-winning New Zealand under-21s. They offered him an improved contract but he knocked them back, saying the Munster opportunity was too good to turn down.

Things then turned a little sour. By last July, when Manning was due to leave, there were still a couple of months remaining on his Marlborough contract. They told him he'd have to buy his way out. NZ$2,000 isn't a lot of money, just over €1,000, but it was money the teenager didn't have. Only after they received letters from Manning's mother did Marlborough relent.

Nearly a year later, he is delighted with his decision. If you haven't heard of him before now, it's because he's been playing for UCC in Division Two of the AIB League, which doesn't tend to fall under the media spotlight — until yesterday, that is, when UCC had a playoff against Lansdowne to reach Division One for the first time in their history.

That they reached those heights had quite a bit to do with their young fly-half, who was the second-highest points scorer in the division and directed what was often a high-risk gameplan from No 10. He got his reward three Fridays ago when he was called before Munster's incoming coach, Declan Kidney, and the chief executive, Garrett Fitzgerald, who offered him a development contract for next year.

"I've always said to my mum and dad I'd love to come over here and play some rugby and experience the culture," said Manning during the week. "Then this came up and I thought, 'Why not give it a go?' I'd been looking at all the players who were up and coming in my position — guys like Luke McAllister and Stephen Donald on the under-21s. I'm not saying I would or wouldn't have made it but the player base in New Zealand is just massive and that reduces your chances of making it as a pro rugby player. I just thought I'd take a gamble.

"I reckon my rugby has improved. I've been really impressed by the quality of the coaching at UCC. There's a lot of emphasis on skills. I've also got the chance to train with the Munster Academy, so I feel a lot stronger. It's been awesome. I'm loving it over here."

Munster are clearly pretty happy, too. The outgoing coach, Alan Gaffney, has been taken by Manning's work ethic as well as his ability. Meanwhile, one year of the naturalisation process is out of the way. By July 2007, when that process concludes, Manning will be just 21, while Ronan O'Gara will be 30. Manning is happy to wait, even if it means playing club rugby for another two years.

"He is a talent, there's no doubt," says Gaffney. "He's a very, very skilful player, with great vision, kicks well with both feet. You could see him playing provincial rugby in the next six months. He needs to develop physically but he spends a lot of time in the gym. The boy's got a future."

So how did Munster pull it off? Some in the organisation would have you believe that the player just fell into their lap. His own version of events shows that the province was more pro-active than that. In February of last year, Manning received a phone call from Paul Rolton, liaison officer to the New Zealand Schools side, to see if he'd mind talking to Dave Monnery, agent/manager to Christian Cullen. Munster were looking for players in certain positions — specifically fly-half and outside centre — and maybe he'd like to look at the contract on offer. Meanwhile, in Wellington, 20-year-old centre/full-back Mike Kingsbeer was receiving a similar call. By July, both players were on the plane together.

If Munster were being a bit secretive about their new recruits, that's understandable — it seems an admission of guilt if your own system fails to produce sufficient quality. And the system clearly is failing, as a quick trawl of the provinces' No 10s reveals.

In Leinster, a Kiwi, an Argentinian and an Australian were vying for the fly-half shirt; in Ulster, 33-year-old David Humphreys is hanging on, while Gareth Steenson, the Irish under-21 choice, isn't deemed good enough to be given a development contract for next year; 32-year-old Paul Burke is O'Gara's back-up in Munster, while Australian Paul Warwick was brought in at Connacht to give 36-year-old Eric Elwood the chance to rest his weary bones occasionally.

Things aren't any better at scrum-half either — Isaac Boss, formerly of Wellington and Waikato but Irish-qualified, joins Ulster next season and is already being tipped as Peter Stringer's successor.

The schools cup competitions are at least partly to blame for the lack of quality playmakers coming through. PBC's recent 9-6 humdinger of a win over CBC in the Munster senior final was the perfect example of the win-at-all-costs mentality that prevails, where individual skill development comes a poor second to percentage rugby. In simple terms, the kid with the biggest boot invariably gets handed the No 10 jersey.

The hope is that by regionalising the IRFU's Academy system, more players will get quality coaching. But it will only make a real difference if the skills coaches are allowed to get at the best youngsters while they are still at school, the earlier the better.

In the meantime, Munster had to think laterally and it appears to have paid off. Kingsbeer has been let go but a 50% success rate from their first venture in the foreign under-age market is impressive.

"Jeremy's a very talented kid and a very ambitious guy," says Fitzgerald. "He has a good personality and he's extremely dedicated. We're just nurturing him along. It was a no-risk venture, really. Young fellas love to travel and if we get something out of it, it's a plus.

"This isn't the first time it's happened. Matt Stevens, England's most recently capped prop, comes from South Africa, while the New Zealanders and Australians have been bringing in islanders for years. I don't want people to get the idea that you're identifying people to come over. They're guaranteed nothing. I wouldn't say it was a Munster policy to do these things. It's a policy to grow from within. But if the opportunity arose, we 'd look at it."

Of course they would. Munster's policy on recruiting coaches may be a little short on imagination — if in doubt, they grab whoever's coaching Leinster. When it comes to bringing in players, they've begun to show a bit more invention. It just might catch on.
.

In 2004 Munster identified where they had a talent deficiency and went to New Zealand for a low risk attempt at solving it. Jeremy Manning became a very useful squad player.

The world didn't cave in when Munster signed Manning and Kingsbeer. The province still looked to promote talent from within their underage ranks. Niall Scannell, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry, Sean Cronin, Stephen Archer, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin, John Ryan, Mike Ross, Billy Holland, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony, Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Rory Scannell, Darren Sweetnam, Keith Earls, Simon Zebo and others went on to be, in some cases, multi-cap internationals and weren't disheartened by the province going abroad to search for additional talent.

Maybe More and Knox didn't come to Munster in order to play for Ireland. Maybe they saw a golden opportunity to play the sport the love for a major team, get to travel and have their education paid for them. Best of luck to both players. There's some total nonsense being spouted elsewhere condemning Munster for these additions to their academy.
 
I dug this article out from 2005. There are parallels with the signings of Matt More and Keynan Knox.

.

In 2004 Munster identified where they had a talent deficiency and went to New Zealand for a low risk attempt at solving it. Jeremy Manning became a very useful squad player.

The world didn't cave in when Munster signed Manning and Kingsbeer. The province still looked to promote talent from within their underage ranks. Niall Scannell, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry, Sean Cronin, Stephen Archer, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin, John Ryan, Mike Ross, Billy Holland, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony, Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Rory Scannell, Darren Sweetnam, Keith Earls, Simon Zebo and others went on to be, in some cases, multi-cap internationals and weren't disheartened by the province going abroad to search for additional talent.

Maybe More and Knox didn't come to Munster in order to play for Ireland. Maybe they saw a golden opportunity to play the sport the love for a major team, get to travel and have their education paid for them. Best of luck to both players. There's some total nonsense being spouted elsewhere condemning Munster for these additions to their academy.
Just to add in that Snoop. They aren't preventing anyone else. I think it is just guys taking an opportunity to pursue a pro career. Let' remember these guybare scouted based on schools rugby only. And well it shows the depth of scouting occurrng in South Africa.
Equally on Knox. It's in a position where even now in our best state we still don't have enough tight heads. Moore is a gamble but no more or less than any other young back
 
You can never have too many tightheads. Look to Leinster as an example. Mike Ross and Michael Bent were internationals. They still invested time in Marty Moore, Tadhg Furlong, Oisín Heffernan, Jeremy Loughman (now with Munster), Andrew Porter, Vakh Adbalade and Jack Aungier. While not all have been "hits" there are more "hits" than "misses".

For Ross and Bent, read John Ryan and Stephen Archer. Invest time in Keynan Knox and the five or six recent Munster underage internationals under the age of 21 and Munster. Not all will make it but chances are a couple will.

I see Billy Holland, Stephen Archer, Liam O'Connor and Kevin O'Byrne have signed new 2 year deals. Calvin Nash and Fineen Wycherley have picked up development deals. Good news all around. Holland has become an important member of the team, Archer is finally delivering on the near 10 year investment in him, O'Connor was excellent in his breakthrough season and O'Byrne is useful squad depth. Nash and Wycherley could have big futures in red.
 
You can never have too many tightheads. Look to Leinster as an example. Mike Ross and Michael Bent were internationals. They still invested time in Marty Moore, Tadhg Furlong, Oisín Heffernan, Jeremy Loughman (now with Munster), Andrew Porter, Vakh Adbalade and Jack Aungier. While not all have been "hits" there are more "hits" than "misses".

For Ross and Bent, read John Ryan and Stephen Archer. Invest time in Keynan Knox and the five or six recent Munster underage internationals under the age of 21 and Munster. Not all will make it but chances are a couple will.

I see Billy Holland, Stephen Archer, Liam O'Connor and Kevin O'Byrne have signed new 2 year deals. Calvin Nash and Fineen Wycherley have picked up development deals. Good news all around. Holland has become an important member of the team, Archer is finally delivering on the near 10 year investment in him, O'Connor was excellent in his breakthrough season and O'Byrne is useful squad depth. Nash and Wycherley could have big futures in red.
Yeah all a good day.
Not announced there but Copeland looks to be on way to Italy too. Not official but it has been rumoured he may be next man to go to Zebre.
 
Noticed Rory Parata lining out for Zebre other day too along with Gaffney. Their Irish contingent is growing a bit.
 
You can never have too many tightheads. Look to Leinster as an example. Mike Ross and Michael Bent were internationals. They still invested time in Marty Moore, Tadhg Furlong, Oisín Heffernan, Jeremy Loughman (now with Munster), Andrew Porter, Vakh Adbalade and Jack Aungier. While not all have been "hits" there are more "hits" than "misses".

For Ross and Bent, read John Ryan and Stephen Archer. Invest time in Keynan Knox and the five or six recent Munster underage internationals under the age of 21 and Munster. Not all will make it but chances are a couple will.

I see Billy Holland, Stephen Archer, Liam O'Connor and Kevin O'Byrne have signed new 2 year deals. Calvin Nash and Fineen Wycherley have picked up development deals. Good news all around. Holland has become an important member of the team, Archer is finally delivering on the near 10 year investment in him, O'Connor was excellent in his breakthrough season and O'Byrne is useful squad depth. Nash and Wycherley could have big futures in red.
Starting to come round to your way of thinking now honestly. Also have to applaud the stones of two lads willing to travel across the world at 18 on a wing to play rugby when they surely had opportunities at home.
Would agree on the prospects you've mentioned too. I think O'Connor will quickly climb our depth chart at 1 with Kilcoyne's discipline among other things and Cronin's unfortunate injury record and inconsistency.
 
Yeah all a good day.
Not announced there but Copeland looks to be on way to Italy too. Not official but it has been rumoured he may be next man to go to Zebre.
He's a player I've a lot of admiration for. Wasn't picked up by Leinster, grafted hard in the RFU Championship for a couple of clubs, earned his break with Cardiff Blues before coming back to Ireland and winning an international cap.

While his time at Munster hasn't gone as well as many would have hoped once he signed for the province, he can be immensely proud of the career he's carved out for himself.
 
He's a player I've a lot of admiration for. Wasn't picked up by Leinster, grafted hard in the RFU Championship for a couple of clubs, earned his break with Cardiff Blues before coming back to Ireland and winning an international cap.

While his time at Munster hasn't gone as well as many would have hoped once he signed for the province, he can be immensely proud of the career he's carved out for himself.
Certainly. He has a good attitude and is a good squad guy. I think he's suited best to a firmer ground and being fair has been hampered by us playing him lock.
 
Maybe better to respond to the doping debate here rather than sidetrack the Ireland thread.

Punishment for doping should be longer, but he's done time and then some. I just find it ridiculous how certain media elements, especially one track rats like Kimmage, a doper himself, suddenly dogpile on an issue that surely would have been more relevant when we'd signed him and then the mouthbreathing unwashed all pile in on Munster as an organisation for signing him and the sarcastic comments about honesty etc come out. If you don't want dopers in Ireland like Snoop, that's a fair stance, and I welcome people expressing it, but it's become a media shitshow at this stage, and not just on this issue. Sharks circling for blood.
And saying this it probably wouldn't come on my radar if Leinster had signed him either. I have no loyalty to the player whatsoever and he'll be off soon, but the coverage it's gotten is disproportionate.
On Grobler I think it's pathetic out of some journalists who just want spotlight. Yes he failed test but served his punishment. He will be leaving in summer likely just hope he can enjoy his time despite being targeted. He's a lovely lad too.

Can understand both your points of view. The media storm has come out of nowhere and seems like a witch hunt.

Looking at it coldly, Gerbrandt Grobler has served his ban for a stupid mistake and should be allowed rehabilitate his career. As stated in July, I bear no ill will towards him and if he plays, I hope he performs well.

My issue is the message it sends. Here's a young player who has cheated to increase him muscle mass. Despite being banned for two years, he's still benefitting by maintaining that illegally obtained muscle mass today. Is that right? Should the IRFU condone this because, in essence, that's what they did by ratifying the signature.

@Groundhog's point that he wouldn't have come on the radar had Leinster signed him rings partially true. Nobody noticed when Racing Metro signed him. Look at the reaction towards Maria Sharapova, another convicted cheat. She's cheered wherever she goes. Nobody cares about the multiple dopers in the NFL and MLB. A lot of people say they despise doping yet turn a blind eye when it helps whoever they support.

My feeling is that Munster won't pick him due to the media sh*tstorm. If he's offered a contract elsewhere, he may be allowed go with immediate effect. If he plays for Munster, it'll only be during the 6 Nations window when rugby media interests are elsewhere.
 
@Groundhog's point that he wouldn't have come on the radar had Leinster signed him rings partially true. Nobody noticed when Racing Metro signed him. Look at the reaction towards Maria Sharapova, another convicted cheat. She's cheered wherever she goes. Nobody cares about the multiple dopers in the NFL and MLB. A lot of people say they despise doping yet turn a blind eye when it helps whoever they support..

I mean Sharapova is hot though so that helps.
 
Maybe better to respond to the doping debate here rather than sidetrack the Ireland thread.




Can understand both your points of view. The media storm has come out of nowhere and seems like a witch hunt.

Looking at it coldly, Gerbrandt Grobler has served his ban for a stupid mistake and should be allowed rehabilitate his career. As stated in July, I bear no ill will towards him and if he plays, I hope he performs well.

My issue is the message it sends. Here's a young player who has cheated to increase him muscle mass. Despite being banned for two years, he's still benefitting by maintaining that illegally obtained muscle mass today. Is that right? Should the IRFU condone this because, in essence, that's what they did by ratifying the signature.

@Groundhog's point that he wouldn't have come on the radar had Leinster signed him rings partially true. Nobody noticed when Racing Metro signed him. Look at the reaction towards Maria Sharapova, another convicted cheat. She's cheered wherever she goes. Nobody cares about the multiple dopers in the NFL and MLB. A lot of people say they despise doping yet turn a blind eye when it helps whoever they support.

My feeling is that Munster won't pick him due to the media sh*tstorm. If he's offered a contract elsewhere, he may be allowed go with immediate effect. If he plays for Munster, it'll only be during the 6 Nations window when rugby media interests are elsewhere.
But the main point Snoop is if these guys have an issue with the law don't scapegoat 1 guy. Take issue with law.
On message bit. You raised it in July. Anyone with that view raised it in July. I'v no issue with that or guys involved wirh rugby. It gutter journalists who are original dopers now making a living off it targeting 1 guy to sell papers
 

Latest posts

Top