England 2023/24

[Which Tyler]

I think it's just more extreme with the props. Looking at those old squads, loads of players haven't made it.

It's also not specific to England. If you look at the other home nations as an example, the conversion rate from U20s to regular international starter is pretty low.

And should be, TBH.
An age grade international takes players in a 2-year age range, and you've got to be pretty exceptional to be a starter in the younger year.
A full international, takes players in a 15-year age range.
You can only realistically expect 1 out of every 7-8 age grade internationals (and 1st choice starters) to become a 1st choice starters at senior international.
Probably 2-3 times that for club level regular starter.

And that's assuming that everyone who makes it U20s international level has the mind-set and desire to make all the sacrifices required of a full-time professional rugby player, and escapes serious injury.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Joe Heyes is still only just turned 25 in April.

But he went backwards this season.


143 games for Leicester, 7 for England he's got the experience. But he really needs to start taking over from Dan Cole soon

 

[Saintjay]

Now that they've changed the laws on scrum ie free kicks not penalties etc. Does it change how Borthwick looks at the props he needs this summer. Ie more mobile light weight vs size, strength ability in the scrum.

I did hear World Rugby are looking subs later in the year. The outcome could also potentially change how props are selected.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Looking at the other squad members from those squad I recognised most of the other names. Just odd how props drop off so much but I get why Catt and the RFU are doing those extra stuff with them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wonder if it's a technique (or lack of) thing at age grades?
Size/strength vs similarly inexperienced props can see you dominate but as you get older and techniques start to develop and some don't have a knack for it? We tend to have bigger age grade lads than most others

Hard to hide poor fundamentals behind physical attributes in other positions (other than lock, which is another position we've struggled with recently)

 

[BPM]

Looking at the other squad members from those squad I recognised most of the other names. Just odd how props drop off so much but I get why Catt and the RFU are doing those extra stuff with them.

The pathway hasn't been super productive for England in recent years, but as I said earlier, it's by no means an issue that is specific to us.

Looking at a direct head to head, of the two 23-man squads from the 2016 final, the return is pretty modest from an established international POV.

For England, Marchant and Willis are the only two who are properly established at test level although 22 caps probably says Malins could be included too. Others with caps are Randall, Singleton, Walker, Chick and Johnny Williams (for Wales). Quite a few solid Premiership players (Will Evans, Tom West, Ollie Thorley, Matt Gallagher): https://www.planetrugby.com/news/where-are-they-now-the-2016-england-u20-world-rugby-champions

For Ireland, Ryan, Porter, Keenan and the obvious standouts followed by Stockdale, but after that, I think Jimmy O'Brien is the only other capped player. Most of the rest haven't even really made a major mark at club level. https://www.balls.ie/rugby/2016-ireland-u20-world-rugby-final-team-501680

This is fairly typical from what I've seen, even for the countries with smaller player pools.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wonder if it's a technique (or lack of) thing at age grades?
Size/strength vs similarly inexperienced props can see you dominate but as you get older and techniques start to develop and some don't have a knack for it? We tend to have bigger age grade lads than most others

Hard to hide poor fundamentals behind physical attributes in other positions (other than lock, which is another position we've struggled with recently)

Totally this. Plus the point about it being a narrow age group.

Plus probably, most of all, the over emphasis on being able to play like a fly half.

SB seems to be prioritising scrummaging more, which is welcome. But ability to scrummage and handle etc aren't mutually exclusive - it's about getting the balance right.

 

[big ginger 8]

The pathway hasn't been super productive for England in recent years, but as I said earlier, it's by no means an issue that is specific to us.

Looking at a direct head to head, of the two 23-man squads from the 2016 final, the return is pretty modest from an established international POV.

For England, Marchant and Willis are the only two who are properly established at test level although 22 caps probably says Malins could be included too. Others with caps are Randall, Singleton, Walker, Chick and Johnny Williams (for Wales). Quite a few solid Premiership players (Will Evans, Tom West, Ollie Thorley, Matt Gallagher): https://www.planetrugby.com/news/where-are-they-now-the-2016-england-u20-world-rugby-champions

For Ireland, Ryan, Porter, Keenan and the obvious standouts followed by Stockdale, but after that, I think Jimmy O'Brien is the only other capped player. Most of the rest haven't even really made a major mark at club level. https://www.balls.ie/rugby/2016-ireland-u20-world-rugby-final-team-501680

This is fairly typical from what I've seen, even for the countries with smaller player pools.

Daly and Deegan have also been capped albeit only 2 each.

 

[BPM]

Ah yeah, missed those. 3 regular starters is a good return from that crop. Stockdale had his time in the sun too but definitely peaked early.

 

[Reiser99]

At least it seems the England setup has identified props as a potential issue. Hopefully these camps will have an impact.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

They just need to stop trying to turn Asher into a loosehead

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We've got flankers by the bucketload, but how good is Dugdale? His surname's not Curry, but he seems to get rave reviews every time he plays.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm a huge fan of his but realistically he's a club level player,
His partnership with Ben Curry is going very very well, but it's the backrow as a unit that's allowing him to shine rather than any specific USP

Do like his hustle/story - released during COVID (academy contract expired mid-lockdown), brought back in on a short term deal to cover injury, upped to a one year contract, extended to a full multi year contract and now relatively regularly picking up MOTM in some really big games (think he's had 3 since the 6N?)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Kyle Sinckler eyes England return for 2027 Rugby World Cup

Prop, who is heading to Toulon would have to secure contract with Premiership club to feature for England in 2027 – if current rules remain

www.telegraph.co.uk

This says that Harper is being considered for the summer

 

[BPM]

Can you paraphrase for those of us that aren't Telegraph subscribers?

 

[BPM]

We've got flankers by the bucketload, but how good is Dugdale? His surname's not Curry, but he seems to get rave reviews every time he plays.

We've normally got plenty to choose from but with quite a few injured, we're a bit more depleted than we'd like to be. Maybe Dugdale has an outside shot?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can you paraphrase for those of us that aren't Telegraph subscribers?

Sinckler bit is basically this quote fleshed out to be an article

"There has been a lot of trial and error for me as well. I've been very grateful for the coaches I've had at Quins and the coaches I've had at Bristol. I hold my hand up, I haven't been the easiest of players [to coach], but in terms of my maturity, it's about accepting it and taking full responsibility.

"I have probably been my own worst enemy and now I'm coming into the peak of my career. They say with props you age like a fine wine, so I'll be learning my trade and testing myself against the best week-in, week-out for the next three years and then I'll come back in 2027 and I'll be ready to go."

Harper bit is literally just a line at the end that says he's being looked at to take to NZ (alongside Cole and Stuart)

 

[BPM]

Fair enough. I'd be happy enough with that (Harper).

Sinckler has a lot of self confidence. I like that he wants to test himself, but I think he may have a hard time given how deeply average he's been since moving to Bristol.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

A Sinckler on form would be a real asset for England, unfortunately I'm not confident we will see it. He went from a great player but too hot-headed to almost apathetic and losing all his bite. If he can just fine some happy medium to build on, he could be pretty set to take over the no.1 spot from Cole as we thought was pretty much a done deal before going to Bristol.

 

[Reiser99]

Yeah, I think his confidence is based on past form, not future form.