[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Ireland vs. New Zealand (19/11/2016)

[Amiga500]

Your gif "conveniently" stops before the head clash.... well colour me surprised!

So, you now accept that Cane did indeed whack him with his shoulder first?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Your gif "conveniently" stops before the head clash.... well colour me surprised!

Come on... Take the blinkers off, shoulder to head, red card.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

http://rugbylad.com/watch-this-angle-proves-challenge-on-robbie-henshaw-was-not-a-clash-of-heads/

The video in this link clearly shows the shoulder hit the head. It was also a fully intentional shoulder, as Cane has actually moved he arm back to shift his shoulder forwards and upwards. Makes no attempt to wrap whatsoever. As I said earlier, I don't know whether he intended his shoulder to hit his head or whether it was meant for the body, but it was an intentional shoulder and the fact that it did it Henshaw in the head shows how reckless it was. Should've been red. I don't think it deserves a long ban, but he shouldn't be playing on this tour again. I doubt he would've been played vs France anyway, there will probably be a similar team to the one that faced Italy.

 

[bazwaz]

...looks like Kiwi- Irish relations have taken a hit after the last two tests- pity there is'nt a decider...speaking of NZ - Irish relations , has anyone seen the NZ Irish XV..?

Fullback: CHRISTIAN CULLEN. Arguably the greatest fullback in All Black history, Cullen scored 46 tries in 58 tests. There were oodles of options for fullback, but none better than the peerless Paekakariki Express.

Right wing: JOHN KIRWAN. The Gaelic version of Kirwan, Ciardhubhan, meant "descendant of the small dark and black person". JK - tall and blond - broke that mould to set a new trend for big rugby wingers with 35 tries in 63 tests. A champion off the field, he was knighted for services to mental health awareness.

Centre: RYAN CROTTY. The Dublin crowd must have done it tough when beaten by one of their own after Crotty claimed the winning try in injury-time in 2013. The capped Crusader could be O'Crotaigh if the family still lived in Waterford.


Second five-eighth: IAN MACRAE. The immediate past president of New Zealand Rugby's family name can be either Irish or Scottish, so we'll claim the blockbusting midfield star of the all-conquering side of the late 1960s (Especially when Bernie McCahill was the alternative).


Left wing: DOUG HOWLETT. Became a Munster man after calling time on his test career. Still New Zealand's record test try scorer with 49 in 62 matches, but he still lives in Cork and was cheering for Ireland after their historic win over the All Blacks in Chicago.

First five-eighth: BEAUDEN BARRETT. The Barrett clan hails from Mayo, Galway and Cork counties and the 2016 World Rugby Player of the Year comes from good Catholic stock in Taranaki. Anyone from Francis Douglas Memorial College (alma mater of John Mitchell and Conrad Smith) qualifies for a Kiwi-Irish team.

Halfback: BYRON KELLEHER. The first Kelleher was the nephew of ancient Irish king Brian Boru. The Kiwi antecedent played 57 tests - no mean feat given his career coincided with Justin Marshall's. The Gaelic derivative of Kelleher - Céileachar - reputedly means "spouse-loving".

Number Eight: MIKE BREWER. Not actually of Irish descent, but big Bruiser played and coached there a long time. Son Harrison, now a Manawatu Turbo, has played for Irish age-group teams.

Flanker: DAVE GALLAHER. A bona fide Irishman who ended up in Auckland and captained the 1905 team with distinction. Past All Black teams have made pilgrimages to his County Donegal domicile.

Flanker: NED BARRY. A big man for his time at 1.88m and 91kg, Barry played just one test in 1934. Gets the nod over grandson Liam Barry, who won his sole cap in 1995 - two years after Ned's last breath.

Lock: JAMES RYAN. With his flaming red hair, the Highlanders beanpole could have been a blood brother of Irish locking legend Paul O'Connell. Tall, athletic, strong in the air but afflicted with injuries, the qualified lawyer walked away from the game at 25 after nine promising tests.

Lock: SCOTT BARRETT. See brother Beauden above. Wikipedia claims the name Barrett is a synonym for "warlike people". Scott, a test debutant in 2016, certainly plays with the vigour of bigger blokes.

Prop: CLARK DERMODY. The Southland frontrower played just three tests 10 years ago but the clan came from Connacht so little wonder London Irish swooped to sign him.

Hooker: SEAN FITZPATRICK. They say it's a long way to Tipperary, where Fitzy's grandfather hailed from. Son of a 1953-54 tour All Black, Sean Fitz, still the game's greatest rake, played 92 tests for the All Blacks and and was a World Cup winner. Holds an Irish passport and his daughters have studied at Dublin's Trinity College.

Prop: CRAIG DOWD. Fitzy's old front row mate packed down in 60 test scrums and still pops up in the media as a critic and commentator. Proud possessor of an ancient Irish name anglicised from Uí Dubhda.

RESERVES: Corey Flynn (hooker), Mark Irwin (prop), Kevin O'Neill (lock), Liam Barry (flanker), Dean Kenny (halfback), Pat Walsh (utility back), Kieran Crowley (utility back), John Gallagher (fullback).

Coach: FRED ALLEN. Another name with Irish and Scottish origins, but Fiery Fred's dressing room raves were so rich, there's a good chance there was Irish blood coursing through his veins.

Sponsor: Guinness.

 

[corny]

Apparently 12 cases referred to the citing commissioner from the game. 11 Nz'ers, 1 Irish.

If we're measuring intent, Coles and Dagg weren't cited because they weren't red card offences by the letter of the law but i thought both of them were looking 'to do' Irish players with the shoulder (Murray and Stander)

Come to think of it there were too many shoulder incidents in the game to believe they were all mistimed or accidents. I know the Kiwis don't like losing but they'd have won the game without resorting to that ****e. Sour taste from what were two great occasions.

 

[james5000]

Did you not see my post on the previous page?


You definitely never seen my posts on the previous match thread:

http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...d-(05-11-2016)?p=823000&viewfull=1#post823000

http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...d-(05-11-2016)?p=823006&viewfull=1#post823006


If you want to be a condescending idiot, at least make sure you quote an appropriate post & poster.

- - - Updated - - -



Possibly.



Does that not make the assumption that both teams made more or less equal transgressions?





http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=401952&stc=1&d=1479596368

Seriously?

- - - Updated - - -



Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the referee suspects a try has been scored, is the question not supposed to be "any reason why I can't"?

Given Barrett's run to the line, I think the entire ground more than "suspected" a try had been scored.

That gif makes it look like he ducked into the shoulder, how is that Canes fault ?

Canes shoulder was aiming low and he dipped in to it, hardly Canes fault?

- - - Updated - - -

Come on... Take the blinkers off, shoulder to head, red card.

He ducked in to it and the head clash prevented him wrapping his arms, this isn't tiddlywinks

 

[bazwaz]

Apparently 12 cases referred to the citing commissioner from the game. 11 Nz'ers, 1 Irish.

.

...seriously ?...i thought the Irish descended from vikings...with all the whimpering i'll have go back and recheck..

 

[corny]

That gif makes it look like he ducked into the shoulder, how is that Canes fault ?

Canes shoulder was aiming low and he dipped in to it, hardly Canes fault?

- - - Updated - - -



He ducked in to it and the head clash prevented him wrapping his arms, this isn't tiddlywinks

Do you not see Cane leading with the right shoulder, his right arm by his side? That position is an indictment in the laws of the game. You realise that right? Wrapping has nothing to do with it in cases like this.

Not tiddlywinks no but leading with the shoulder in the tackle is outlawed for good reason. There's nothing macho is cheap shotting a prone player. Its cowardly if we're calling a spade a spade.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Good tough game of Test rugby I thought. All Blacks win by way of their defence and being a bit sharper with ball in hand
It's a pity all the talk about thuggery, etc. Fekitoa was dumb, knew it and deserved a yellow card. Cane was going for a "ball and all tackle" and the Irish boy turned into him. Head clash. You see that all the time in Super Rugby. I can't see why he got his yellow and believe if were SANZAR he would never have been cited. If it's causing so much angst up North then perhaps IRB need to intro a rule of "Below the nipple line" when it comes to tackling. We have this up to Under 13's.
The Ref and TMO were inconstant in at least not discussing the tackle on Barrett. The pass looked forward in the Fekitoa try and I was surprised it was awarded without them having a look.

 

[The Jones Boy]

So, you now accept that Cane did indeed whack him with his shoulder first?

You're F***ing having a laugh mate.
Watch it in real time, they hit face to face and it's awful. It's the initial head contact that knocks out Henshaw and mostly because he doesn't see it coming as he is spinning away from Read.. Cane is going up in gang tackle mode with Kieran Read to hit the advancing line fast and hard. Collisions are going to occur. There is no time for Cane to make a calculated tackle with malice. There is no swinging arm. There is no contact of arm to the head. It's clearly head to head and Cane gets the better of it.
It looks to me that Cane is shaping his body to make the tackle but it doesn't reach a finished position because Henshaw is in contact too quickly for him. Cane is taken by surprise but it's job to effect the tackle.

Cane's a very committed no.7, he is following in the footsteps of the most successful AB no.7 ever and he has Ardie Savea breathing down his neck for his spot. This was set to be a battle royal from the moment the Irish won in Soldiers Field. Cane has reacted very quickly to the danger of a breakout where the ball carrier has changed direction radically at a moments notice and Cane is already committed in that direction at high speed.
It was a lamentable outcome. Especially for Henshaw and Ireland.
It's horrible to watch but there is no malice in it whatsoever.
It appeared reckless and worthy of a penalty but Cane did try to wrap and the left arm made cross body contact to that effect and the TMO picked it up. This was not a malicious King-Hit. It was an accidental head clash.
The commentary is a little biased but you're gonna get that from the home team as it were. I doubt ours would have been much different.
The All Blacks lifted their defensive game considerably and Ireland didn't lift their attacking game (this time) to match the intensity of the defence.
Tana Umaga once said, "This isn't tiddlywinks."

 

[Amiga500]

You're F***ing having a laugh mate.

Look at the damn link in this thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=401952&stc=1&d=1479596368

Now, from that view you could argue its a legit tackle, only he hits him in the head with the shoulder. But from behind you can clearly see him pull the arm back and raise the shoulder up.

 

[Makos]

The commentary is a little biased but you're gonna get that from the home team as it were. I doubt ours would have been much different.

Have to disagree on that one. Justin Marshall is impartial (sorry). He's actually more anti-AB than anything.

 

[die_mole]

fekitoa and cane are the only ones going to the citing commission

the whole WR crack down on "reckless contact" makes me think that he will face a suspension because that tackle was something else

cane on the other hand knew what he was doing, he had good form he was just a little high

penalty makes sense and maybe a yellow card

WR might try to send a message though

to me cane's was a do it once, it's a penalty... do it again and their will be more consequences

 

[Makos]

Has Sexton been cited? Pretty cynical stuff from him in all honesty.

 

[corny]

You're F***ing having a laugh mate.
Watch it in real time, they hit face to face and it's awful. It's the initial head contact that knocks out Henshaw and mostly because he doesn't see it coming as he is spinning away from Read.. Cane is going up in gang tackle mode with Kieran Read to hit the advancing line fast and hard. Collisions are going to occur. There is no time for Cane to make a calculated tackle with malice. There is no swinging arm. There is no contact of arm to the head. It's clearly head to head and Cane gets the better of it.
It looks to me that Cane is shaping his body to make the tackle but it doesn't reach a finished position because Henshaw is in contact too quickly for him. Cane is taken by surprise but it's job to effect the tackle.

Cane's a very committed no.7, he is following in the footsteps of the most successful AB no.7 ever and he has Ardie Savea breathing down his neck for his spot. This was set to be a battle royal from the moment the Irish won in Soldiers Field. Cane has reacted very quickly to the danger of a breakout where the ball carrier has changed direction radically at a moments notice and Cane is already committed in that direction at high speed.
It was a lamentable outcome. Especially for Henshaw and Ireland.
It's horrible to watch but there is no malice in it whatsoever.
It appeared reckless and worthy of a penalty but Cane did try to wrap and the left arm made cross body contact to that effect and the TMO picked it up. This was not a malicious King-Hit. It was an accidental head clash.
The commentary is a little biased but you're gonna get that from the home team as it were. I doubt ours would have been much different.
The All Blacks lifted their defensive game considerably and Ireland didn't lift their attacking game (this time) to match the intensity of the defence.
Tana Umaga once said, "This isn't tiddlywinks."

You're wilfully blind and this circling now but a few points before i check out.....

-Cane hits Henshaw in the head with his right shoulder. It wasn't a head clash.
-Intent HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Leading with a high shoulder (whether you intend it or not) will get you in serious trouble. Cane will get a holiday and the citing commissioner is a Kiwi btw so blame your brethren!
-There were numerous high shots in the game. Lead one to believe NZ were guilty of gross negligence or they were head hunting. Take your pick.
-Not tiddlywinks no.
-'up north' we're not soft
-No its not macho to smash someone in the face with your shoulder.
-NZ won the game fair and square and the incidents being discussed had no bearing on the outcome of the game.

 

[smartcooky]

...um i think NZ were penalised sixteen times to Ireland's four weren't they ?....is'nt that like getting penalised 400% more of the time so that kinda blows that argument out of the water...

THIS!!

Anyone arguing that the referee favoured the All Blacks when they got TWO yellow cards and had a 4-16 penalty count against them is spending too much time spanking the monkey!

I thought Ireland got away with a lot of stuff too, including

- The intentional knock forward of a pass from Barrett to Dagg that would have had Dagg in under the posts. (arguing that it was a genuine attempt to intercept is bollocks. The player intentionally batted the ball forward. It was near identical to the Sean Maitland Yellow card in the RWC)

- The head high tackle and neck roll by Sexton went unpunished.

- I think there was a crafty foot trip behind a ruck as well that went unnoticed.

 

[The Jones Boy]

fekitoa and cane are the only ones going to the citing commission

the whole WR crack down on "reckless contact" makes me think that he will face a suspension because that tackle was something else

cane on the other hand knew what he was doing, he had good form he was just a little high

penalty makes sense and maybe a yellow card

WR might try to send a message though

to me cane's was a do it once, it's a penalty... do it again and their will be more consequences

Bingo.
I can completely see why Fekitoa is being cited. He was reckless with a swinging arm, he could have decapitated Zebo and it looked like he made a decision to be reckless. A rush of blood to the head, frankly he deserves what he gets, the bloody yahoo. To his credit he did put his hand up straight away but he's still an idiot for doing that in any international fixture.

Cane's was situational he was going in to effect a tackle but he had no time to adjust for Henshaw's change of direction which came about from being bounced by Kieran Read's tackle attempt.
Henshaw's concussion was accidental.
No question.
If that gets Cane a ban because of a directive, so be it.
You can't legislate for what happened in that situation.

Sexton was well high on Barrett but stuff happens in rugby and Barrett is ok, maybe I'd feel differently if it wasn't the case.
I was surprised that the Irish fullback wasn't pinged for an intentional knock on, he would have been hammered for it in the southern hemisphere but the ref was only looking one way in the Dublin match and you get that sometimes so you just wear it and crack on.

- - - Updated - - -

There's nothing macho is cheap shotting a prone player. Its cowardly if we're calling a spade a spade.

Cheap shots are low and dirty agreed.
I didn't see any cheap shot in the tackle Cane made on Henshaw.
Henshaw was spinning away at an angle from Read's legitimate challenge.
Cane was already committing to the rush defence, he definitely knew he was going to effect a tackle, and Henshaw came into his flight path much more quickly than either player expected. Cane did wrap with the left arm (listen to what the TMO says before you talk nonsense about being blind, you are being deaf) but there was not time to react with the right arm because of the angle and by that time both had smashed head first into each other. Cane on a forward trajectory so he saw it happen, Henshaw from the side so he didn't see it and thats what knocked him sparko. It's the contact you don't see that brings a knock out.
There have been only two citing from the game and I completely agree with the Fekitoa citing, he deserves a ban.
The Henshaw tackle not so much but the WR committee will do what they think is right and we will take it on the chin, and move on.
You believe what you want to believe mate if it makes you feel better.

 

[james5000]

Do you not see Cane leading with the right shoulder, his right arm by his side? That position is an indictment in the laws of the game. You realise that right? Wrapping has nothing to do with it in cases like this.

Not tiddlywinks no but leading with the shoulder in the tackle is outlawed for good reason. There's nothing macho is cheap shotting a prone player. Its cowardly if we're calling a spade a spade.

Are Irish not taught to tackle leading with your shoulder?

Otherwise you would be just tackling with your arms?

That's tackling for tots level?

Shoulder charging is quite different to what Cane was attempting at high speed where the guy is ducking in to him

 

[The Jones Boy]

Have to disagree on that one. Justin Marshall is impartial (sorry). He's actually more anti-AB than anything.

Justin Marshall is a numpty, he'll say anything to get himself back on the panel next week. Our commentary team are ok but Ian Smith has been known to make the odd foolish statement, I put it down to being a cricketer.

 

[corny]

Cheap shots are low and dirty agreed.
I didn't see any cheap shot in the tackle Cane made on Henshaw.
Henshaw was spinning away at an angle from Read's legitimate challenge.
Cane was already committing to the rush defence, he definitely knew he was going to effect a tackle, and Henshaw came into his flight path much more quickly than either player expected. Cane did wrap with the left arm (listen to what the TMO says before you talk nonsense about being blind, you are being deaf) but there was not time to react with the right arm because of the angle and by that time both had smashed head first into each other. Cane on a forward trajectory so he saw it happen, Henshaw from the side so he didn't see it and thats what knocked him sparko. It's the contact you don't see that brings a knock out.
You believe what you want to believe mate if it makes you feel better.

I saw his shoulder accelerating upwards in the tackle. I don't know why you're hung up on intent. You don't know what Cane was thinking, neither do i. All i can tell you is a high shoulder in the face of an opponent is borderline red card. Lads here don't seem to know the laws of the game too well. Whether Cane intended to do damage or not is irrelevant to the decision. Its borderline red card stuff whether he meant it or not. If you really want me to speculate on intent though....taken in isolation i give Cane the benefit of the doubt. It happened fast no question. But Coles smashed Murray in the face with a shoulder and swinging arm, Dagg smashed Stander in the face with a shoulder and arms by his side, Feki and Cane etc, i've watched the game once...there were more. Thats called a pattern of behaviour mate. Cynical, clumsy, thuggish, you decide. Doesn't make me feel better about losing. Just dogmatically arguing the point at this stage truth be known.

NZ'ers are stoic when they want to be. When they felt aggrieved in 2007 they sent Wayne Barnes death threats. C'est la vie.