Springbok issues

[AM_Bokke]

Plus, they were lucky to only lose by two points against Wales.

Had Wales continued their momentum from the first-half, it would have been 30-0 before half-time.

Credit to South Africa for coming back into the game, but they have to scrap the identity politics nonsense - that BS has killed the NFL dead, is South African rugby next on the Social Justice Virtue Signalling Uber Liberal Wazzocks hit-list?

If South African rugby really wants to be all black, then they should at least do the Haka before the game!

Just an FYI

The NFL's biggest issue is that there is just more to do now. Football was by far the dominant past time for both college and high school students as spectators through to the 80s. High school football was a huge deal socially for baby boomers. The social relavance of high school football really helped following the NFL become a habit for that generation.

High school students (and college students) have a lot more to do socially now and football is now just one of a zillion things and not THE thing that it was. It is natural that the NFL dominance of entertainment is declining.

The NFL has also become so passing oriented that there are not enough Quaternacks capable of playing at the level required to be successful. So many NFL games are dire now because the QBs are not good enough.

 

[AM_Bokke]

With regards to the Boks coach I am resigned to be happy with whatever happens. The whole situation is so botched it seems that all one can do right now is be loyal supporter of the Boks.

Here is what i think about it all:

- SA has economic and government problems as a nation that don't help the situation.

- SARU is poorly organized compared to NZ and Ireland. Good organization is so important especially with the economic disparities that the SH, and especially SA, have with the NH. NZ is the model. I think that SA should replicate it.

- Have the springboks ever been good at building the next generation of players? I find it odd when people complain that AC is not building depth when it is unclear to me that any coach has ever built depth at test level. Test rugby standards are higher now then they were 10 years ago and I think that the Boks are just now starting to understand that. The work that needs to be done is not quick and easy.

- other teams are better now. I find it strange when people are like "AC is the first coach to lose to Ireland at home" or "HM is the first coach to lose to Arg at home". Hopefully these teams get better! It's also not 1995 any more. Ireland are good and have done a lot of hard organizational work to get there. SARU has been slow.

- AC is not a running rugby coach but that does not make him a bad coach. I actually think that his approach to the NH tour with the kicking game was the right one. Ireland would have clobbered a Xerox Lions type game plan.

- the Boks are better than at this time last year. They are scouring more tries and conceding fewer. The team is better.

- AC is awful with the media. People that call him a Dick have a good argument.

- I think that Rassie needs to concentrate on player management. Hopefully Rassie is good but I don't see him coaching the Boks everyday. I think that he would crumble under the media spotlight.

- I think that appointing Davids to replace AC at this point would be spiteful. He has no where near the accomplishments that AC does and it would just look bad.

- PdV would be a caretaker coach. A caretaker coach for a national side would just be pathetic. We play England at home next for crying out loud!

Whatever happens is fine but all of my expectations are on Rassie getting better players into the Spingbok setup. Both through contracting and coaching at lower levels.

 

[mdaclarke]

I think they should consider keeping AC, however if not then Peter De Villiers would be OK (provided not caretaker). My favourite would be either Jake White or Ruan Ackerman. The important thing is that they have Rassie to supervise them and a good coaching staff.

 

[AM_Bokke]

I think they should consider keeping AC, however if not then Peter De Villiers would be OK (provided not caretaker). My favourite would be either Jake White or Ruan Ackerman. The important thing is that they have Rassie to supervise them and a good coaching staff.

I don't know how PdV would be anything except a caretaker. He doesn't have the required recent experience.

If Ackerman will take the job at this point in time he is certainly worth a heavy look. IDK, Jake White just seems like reverting to the past which Is a habit that SA Rugby really needs to stop. I would prefer Davids to White. Just to do something different.

 

[mdaclarke]

I don't know how PdV would be anything except a caretaker. He doesn't have the required recent experience.

If Ackerman will take the job at this point in time he is certainly worth a heavy look. IDK, Jake White just seems like reverting to the past which Is a habit that SA Rugby really needs to stop. I would prefer Davids to White. Just to do something different.

Jake White is a proven world cup winner

 

[munstermuffin]

With regards to the Boks coach I am resigned to be happy with whatever happens. The whole situation is so botched it seems that all one can do right now is be loyal supporter of the Boks.

Here is what i think about it all:

- SA has economic and government problems as a nation that don't help the situation.

- SARU is poorly organized compared to NZ and Ireland. Good organization is so important especially with the economic disparities that the SH, and especially SA, have with the NH. NZ is the model. I think that SA should replicate it.

- Have the springboks ever been good at building the next generation of players? I find it odd when people complain that AC is not building depth when it is unclear to me that any coach has ever built depth at test level. Test rugby standards are higher now then they were 10 years ago and I think that the Boks are just now starting to understand that. The work that needs to be done is not quick and easy.

- other teams are better now. I find it strange when people are like "AC is the first coach to lose to Ireland at home" or "HM is the first coach to lose to Arg at home". Hopefully these teams get better! It's also not 1995 any more. Ireland are good and have done a lot of hard organizational work to get there. SARU has been slow.

- AC is not a running rugby coach but that does not make him a bad coach. I actually think that his approach to the NH tour with the kicking game was the right one. Ireland would have clobbered a Xerox Lions type game plan.

- the Boks are better than at this time last year. They are scouring more tries and conceding fewer. The team is better.

- AC is awful with the media. People that call him a Dick have a good argument.

- I think that Rassie needs to concentrate on player management. Hopefully Rassie is good but I don't see him coaching the Boks everyday. I think that he would crumble under the media spotlight.

- I think that appointing Davids to replace AC at this point would be spiteful. He has no where near the accomplishments that AC does and it would just look bad.

- PdV would be a caretaker coach. A caretaker coach for a national side would just be pathetic. We play England at home next for crying out loud!

Whatever happens is fine but all of my expectations are on Rassie getting better players into the Spingbok setup. Both through contracting and coaching at lower levels.

On Rassie. Have you watched what he did in the circumstances at Munster. The best man manager I've ever came across and very well organised and capable in media eue

 

[AM_Bokke]

On Rassie. Have you watched what he did in the circumstances at Munster. The best man manager I've ever came across and very well organised and capable in media eue

I don't think that Rassie is a savor no. He has a huge job. His man management skills will best tested immeadiatly when he calls Francois Venter, Franco Mostert and Jaco Kriel over the next few weeks.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Haha, I have to say the rumour mill is amusing and the fake news reports inbetween is making it even funnier.

The way I see it, AC won't resign, he has even come out and said it flat out. So the issue is if SARU will fire him because of the performance clause in his contract stipulating that he must obtain a 65% win record, and he's currently on 44%.

If they fire him, then there will most probably be meeting/indaba held and a look at relevant candidates, along with Rassie Erasmus and how to proceed. Plus the next test is only in June next year against England, so there is enough time not to make a too hesitant decision.

 

[Durbanite]

I hope they at least approach Johan Ackermann before considering less tested options. Maybe he's willing to drop Gloucester for a national position

 

[sharkfan]

Well now with Rassie Erasmus back in SA, SARU is looking to replace Coetzee with.....wait for it....Deon Davids, the Southern Kings coach! No Kiwi coach, no Johan Ackermann, no Jake White, Deon Davids! Well done SARU!

 

[unrated]

Yea as me and Heineken noted many of these are probably fake news. And if AC gets fired knowing SARU they will leave the decision up until a week before the next tournament starts. To give the next coach as little time to prepare as possible just so that they can use the excuse that the coach did not have a lot of time to prepare in case they perform badly. Anycase there is probably some element of truth to reports of Deon Davids and PDV being linked as they will most definitely look for a coach of colour to replace AC even if they are not close to being the best options yet ( Deon Davids being a option post 2022). Its just so absurd, it really blows my mind that they are even being linked with fake news. How can reports of PDV be considered anything other than a huge badly timed joke? (good time would have been april 1)

 

[George Ford]

So much speculation around Rassie's role, but it sounds like he will be the man to have the last say on the Springboks so, in effect, he will be the new manager/coach.

Recall he was the main guy behind the Cheetahs team who broke the Blue Bulls dominance of the Currie Cup around '05-'07. He then went on to coach the Stormers in '08/'09 (bringing Duane Vermeulen with him) and set-up the Stormers franchise to be a formidable SR side in the years to cup, albeit he employed AC to take the reigns as coach during some time and he became the director of rugby, then further went on to national structures to setup the mobi-unit for SARU I think.

The way I see it the director of rugby plays the role of the coach until a head coach is officially appointed under him. So the possibilities are that he may even keep AC on as head coach, or if the latter is fired will, he take reigns hands on until a new understudy is found. (John Mitchell has this role with Bulls).

Side-note: Sport24 rumors are saying Rassie's intending to lure Vermeulen back to SA

 

[sharkfan]

Rassie can lure a few more players back, Andries Coetzee, Damian De Allende and Elton Jantjies can go play overseas.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think we will see daily articles now until SARU meets next week (The 13th of December) as to what the future might hold for Springbok Rugby.

It's just funny for me as to how attacking some of the players are in the articles being posted, instead of taking the shots on the chin and using the criticism.

Kolisi being basically the only one continuously defending AC. Etzebeth having a war of words with Nick Mallet. Most of these articles are about guys that was coached by AC while he was at the Stormers as well.

Why are the other guys keeping quiet? Why hasn't a guy like Francois Louw/Beast Mtawarira/Duane Vermeulen come and say something. They are the most experienced players in the group, and their deafening silence makes me think that they are not in agreement as to what is happening in the Bok Camp. It doesn't help you have youngsters say things, when they are only used to the same type of coach both provincially and nationally.

My opinion is that if we appoint a new coach, that it should be someone who hasn't been part of any Super Rugby or Currie Cup coaching setup and will come in with no strings attached to certain players. That is the easiest and best way to prevent the so-called "Love Child" player being continuously selected for the Bok team ahead of others who should be there more so on merit.

I'm not saying every coach will get it right, but at least there will be less pressure on him. I also hear that Rassie Erasmus wants to abolish the 30-cap rule. Which could mean guys like Cobus Reinach/Faf De Klerk/Marcell Coetzee and others could feature for the boks as early as June 2018 while still playing overseas.

 

[unrated]

I also hear that Rassie Erasmus wants to abolish the 30-cap rule. Which could mean guys like Cobus Reinach/Faf De Klerk/Marcell Coetzee and others could feature for the boks as early as June 2018 while still playing overseas.

That would be the best solution to our short term woes. We should use the Brazilian Football team as a model.
Their players play in leagues around the world but somehow they manage to be in the top two in the world of football a much more competitive sport than Rugby at the moment. If they can form cohesion with their foreign players and make sure they are conditioned to accepted levels then surely we can also do it in rugby. Bear in mind Football has become very competitive and lots of money has been pumped into the game in terms of high performance so their margins are definitely fine. In rugby only the top 8 nations are really close. Maybe even just the top 6. Lets embrace the fact that our players are going to move abroad. Soak up all their cumulative experience in the different leagues of the world with our young home based players supplementing them. The Brazilian league is a gold mine for young talent currently they are a fellow third world nation so economics can be compared as opposed to the german youth setup.

Just because many of the best Brazilians left their own shores did not automatically translate in the production of weaker Brazilian local players rather they keep on producing gems. I think we will keep on producing good players even without the influence of our experienced "hardebaarde" players. These young players can then gain some of that experience by sharing a national team dressing room with our foreign internationals. The argument that foreign based players won't want to play for the Springboks based on club commitments are moot as given the right environment ( a culture of embracing players based abroad) and good incentives to supplement their club contracts then they will always jump for the opportunity to play for a team such as the Springboks.

And that is how i feel we can reach the top 2 if not top 1 in world rugby within tow years.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Good luck with that, Unrated.

It sounds a good idea, and if coaches could trust teams globally to release players called up for matches then it has some potential.

However, look at Wales. A player could be living and playing in Exeter/Gloucester/Worcester, but as he's the wrong side of Offa's Dyke he won't get called up. Crazy, because these places aren't exactly 200 miles from The Vale Resort.

 

[AM_Bokke]

To me it seems that the best way to be a competitive top intentional rugby side is to give your best players occasional sabbaticals and long term rest.

It's a competitive business decision that players like Ben Smith, Israel Falou, and David Pocock are currently taking breaks from rugby. If I am correct, Johnny Sexton only played in one Pro 14 game this season before the Springbok game. Sam Warburton doesn't play a whole lot of club games either. Dan Carter played in an average of 13 club games a season in New Zealand. All of this is because they cannot play rugby week-in and week-out and play at their best.

For the Boks we have Francois Louw who has played nonstop rugby for something like 6 years right? I feel like the European club rugby season and SH test rugby are basically incompatible.

I don't know how much short term stress the Boks are in financially. I guess that both the coaching decision and the 30 cap decision might hang on short term considerations. Which is too bad. I definitely see that some people say that they won't buy tickets to the England matches if Coatzee is the coach. If the presence of a coach is affecting the business then he needs to go. Maybe reducing the cap rule could help in the short run, I am not personally convinced, but I think that it would hurt in the long run.

Some people have said that there is actually more money in South African rugby than there is in New Zealand rugby. I am not sure if that is true, but if that's the case the problem is not financial, it is organizational. Super Rugby was created with the sole purpose of giving the SH a scale at which to compete with the revenue potential of England and France. It has pretty much worked. The TV deals have gotten bigger and are much bigger than the Pro 14's. It is just that SARU has not figured out how to best use the tools that the SH has. The SH is also getting most of what they want out of World Rugby with regards to the annual test calendar.

The big thing that the SH can't compete with is the losses that NH club owners have been able to absorb. Saracen's losses alone are greater then the Aus super rugby salary cap. It's crazy. But there are signs that the financial joke that is NH rugby is being reigned in. The light at the end of the tunnel is not there for rugby's investors. The value destroying subsidy will stop.

The Pro 14 needs top players in their league to increase their TV contracts. Super Rugby will be the same. If all of the Springboks are playing in Europe then the TV revenue for Super Rugby will fall. I think that gates will fall to. I personally can't see how selecting overseas players is good for SA Rugby. I am of the view that SARU needs to be definitive about this. The waffling back'n'forth just does not give the players the "policy certainty" that they need to make commitments to the Springboks and SA rugby teams. It doesn't give the Bok's sponsors certainty over the product and how it is managed either.

With regards to Brazil the last time that I watched a Brazilian football match it was full of journeyman players. The game was entertaining enough but it wasn't full of starlets. With regards to Argentina, Lionel Messi has never played club football in Argentina.

I think that it is also worth noting Argentina's hard rugby cap for the Pumas. Why do they have this cap? Because they don't want to be the rugby equivalent of a South American football league. They know what it's like and it's not great. Would much rather work toward being at the top of the world table of leagues than an underling.

 

[CleanCut]

The tragedy of it all is that even though racism is heavily frowned upon across the globe, for some reason it's an acceptable practice in South African business and sport.

Why is that?

Two different sets of rules apply to the South African citizen. You are rewarded if you have a certain skin colour and oppressed if you don't have that skin colour.

As an example ... Tax benefits are given to those companies who promote black empowerment. Affirmative action is rampant in the country. We have so many incompetent people employed in positions they're not suited to. Competency levels aren't a priority.

The Bok is under the same pressure. The whole planet knows about it and says nothing. They are quite happy to accept these racist policies ... just as long as it not white on black. Black on white is fine though. It's absurd.

South Africa has to produce a team for the next world cup that has a 50% player of colour representation. Whether they know how to play the game or not is not a priority.

They thought it a good idea to appoint a man of colour as coach. He was paid a great deal of money to give opportunities to the useless and he did exactly that. Now they're wondering what happened. Back to back record scores against the All Blacks is a result of it. Another record score against Ireland.

The Springbok is dead. More than a 100 years of rich history down the toilet. All so that the black man can feel better about himself.

Such a shame!!

 

[unrated]

The tragedy of it all is that even though racism is heavily frowned upon across the globe, for some reason it's an acceptable practice in South African business and sport.

Why is that?

Two different sets of rules apply to the South African citizen. You are rewarded if you have a certain skin colour and oppressed if you don't have that skin colour.

As an example ... Tax benefits are given to those companies who promote black empowerment. Affirmative action is rampant in the country. We have so many incompetent people employed in positions they're not suited to. Competency levels aren't a priority.

The Bok is under the same pressure. The whole planet knows about it and says nothing. They are quite happy to accept these racist policies ... just as long as it not white on black. Black on white is fine though. It's absurd.

South Africa has to produce a team for the next world cup that has a 50% player of colour representation. Whether they know how to play the game or not is not a priority.

They thought it a good idea to appoint a man of colour as coach. He was paid a great deal of money to give opportunities to the useless and he did exactly that. Now they're wondering what happened. Back to back record scores against the All Blacks is a result of it. Another record score against Ireland.

The Springbok is dead. More than a 100 years of rich history down the toilet. All so that the black man can feel better about himself.

Such a shame!!

You can instead rant about the subject in the dedicated thread for discussions about Quotas and racism in South African sport.
https://www.therugbyforum.com/threa...ta-catch-all-thread.38215/page-11#post-881244

I don't think we should use this thread for that purpose as it would overshadow the other issues within SA rugby. Quotas is an issue but its definitely not the only one.

 

[CleanCut]

The thread is ***led "Springbok issues" is it not?

Quotas and racism is absolutely a Springbok issue.

It in no way over shadows any other discussion ... unless of course you feel a little uncomfortable facing the facts.

Feel free to hide your head in the sand. I for one much prefer to look at the issue squarely in the eye ... calling it what it is.