2016 Olympic Games, Rio

[ratsapprentice]

It's also temporary.

 

[j'nuh]

Are we? I'm not quite sure what you mean by erasure but to use the example of Semenya, she does not appear physically or mentally changed (could easily be wrong here), her T levels go back up after time suppressing them, and the maximum level that was permitted under the IAAF rules was incredibly high by feminine standards. I'm not expert, but in line with low testosterone men seems likely that they still feel them.

Could be wrong of course. I really don't know much about this. But it doesn't seem like they're forcing intersex people to cease being intersex people to compete.

On the first point - athletes do have a permitted list of medicines, which I would call a forcible requirement on what particular kind they're allowed. I imagine its the same with supplements.

I think there's a fairly clear distinction in regards to liberty contrasting banning a substance and forcing someone to take a substance. At the very least, this appears to be a given with law of the land. We ban narcotics, but I cannot think of an instance where a government forces an adult to eat, drink or take a given substance.

I wouldn't be utterly surprised to find scholarship money depends on a certain lifestyle and diet being adhered to.

A freedom given to the group or institution providing the scholarship. This does not contravene the right of the person to compete in a competition. They can still self-train, or find another sponsor. If they are a top, Olympic-aspiring athlete, I doubt they will find this difficult, quirks and all.

Best example I can think of is Euan Murray. Euan has the right to refuse to work on Sunday due to religious reasons. Any of his clubs, or Scotland, also had the right not to employ or play him because of it. Had he not been as good as he was (in the context of the players available to Scotland), you would think it would have harmed his chances. But he seemed to have a good professional career in spite of this.

Without knowing exactly how hormone suppression works, I don't know whether this is a fair comparison. But I did include the caveats of no physical or mental harm.

I mean I profess similar ignorance, but on a very basic level, testosterone has behavioural effects. To change a person's testosterone levels is to change their behaviours. (Or, at least when I talk about intersex erasure, it is under the pretext that this is the case.) Which is okay if the decision comes from the person, but I would always err on the side of caution when talking about forcibly changing the biological make-up of a person.

Lots of professions have requirements though, I don't feel that my agency has been reduced by a requirement to qualify before doing my job.
I also don't think that pole vaulters have lost any agency because they're required to use a regulation pole, or a hurdler has lost their agency by having all these obstacles placed in their way.

No profession, that I know of, forces someone to eat, drink or take a substance though. (Scratch that, some doctors and nurses, in special circumstances, need immunisation against certain diseases, particularly if they are working in aid overseas, but I think there's a fairly obvious case for an exception here.)

I don't see any echoes at all, looks much more like a strawman to me. On the one hand you have enforced breeding / sterilisation; on the other you have voluntary reduction of something that makes no diference to any part of your life* beyond your ability to produce 10 times the amount of testosterone of any of your rivals.

The undertone is that a group of people are forcibly biologically changed. The ends are different, the means are directly comparable.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I certainly wouldn't describe it as being "forced" (I have read your argument for this, and disagree).

 

[j'nuh]

I certainly wouldn't describe it as being "forced" (I have read your argument for this, and disagree).

I mean, there are two situations:

Where the intersex person agrees in spirit to take hormone-suppressors. In which case we don't really have a problem.

Or that the intersex person does not agree to take them. In which case they are being made to take them against their will, and so forced would be the right term.

 

[ratsapprentice]

As I say... I disagree, if not technically - certainly with what that definition implies.

 

[Peat]

Yes, not being able to take some over the counter medicines is not the same thing as having to take hormone suppressors.

But it is evidence that athletes do already face some very onerous restrictions on their liberty and what they can do to their bodies. I think you're being very cavalier about what losing their funding means for some athletes, particularly young ones. Sure, they don't *need* it. But the odds are on it making or breaking their careers. They need it. It is all voluntary, but the choice is basically "Do this or Go Home". Which is the choice Semenya has too.

Now, we don't know what exactly "This" means to Semenya, so I shall tread carefully. Its clearly potentially a huge amount more than "Don't take this medicine" or even "Don't reject our training or we won't pick you". But only potentially. It is an unknown. And reading about doesn't seem to be making it known to me either - although I would add that a lot of hyperandrogenic athletes are being pressured to get surgery according to this article and that's not cool (or even part of the official policy).

 

[Which Tyler]

I mean, there are two situations:

Where the intersex person agrees in spirit to take hormone-suppressors. In which case we don't really have a problem.

Or that the intersex person does not agree to take them. In which case they are being made to take them against their will, and so forced would be the right term.

Your latter scenario does not exist. It is a straw-man. No-one is forcing anyone to do otherwise. Each individual has the right to choose to abide by the rules, or to not abide by the rules, if the latter, then they don't get to compete.
Dr.s ARE forced to have medical degrees, Lawyers are forced to have law degrees etc etc. Semenya and others are not forced to be Olympic athletes.

There is no force involved anywhere here, there is no loss of agency. Trying to invoke outrage with echoes of rape and eugenics is pure strawman, and nothing to do with what's being discussed.

ETA
I think we all agree that requiring something permanent like surgery, or that effects her life away from the track is beyond dodgy, but that's not the discussion (unless someone has some information that no-one else here or in the media has seen)

ETA
You may well have some decent arguments in there somewhere, but I for one, can't see them through the clickbait bull****, so your hyperbole is doing your argument a disservice (for me at least)

 

[TRF_heineken]

Your latter scenario does not exist. It is a straw-man. No-one is forcing anyone to do otherwise. Each individual has the right to choose to abide by the rules, or to not abide by the rules, if the latter, then they don't get to compete.
Dr.s ARE forced to have medical degrees, Lawyers are forced to have law degrees etc etc. Semenya and others are not forced to be Olympic athletes.

There is no force involved anywhere here, there is no loss of agency. Trying to invoke outrage with echoes of rape and eugenics is pure strawman, and nothing to do with what's being discussed.

ETA
I think we all agree that requiring something permanent like surgery, or that effects her life away from the track is beyond dodgy, but that's not the discussion (unless someone has some information that no-one else here or in the media has seen)

ETA
You may well have some decent arguments in there somewhere, but I for one, can't see them through the clickbait bull****, so your hyperbole is doing your argument a disservice (for me at least)

Hold on... You need to make a distinction between requirement and compliance.

The only requirement a female athlete needs to compete as a female athlete is to be a female (and in Semenya's case, undergone the gender verification process). But female athletes need to comply with WADA regulations, Qualifying as per Olympic regulations and attend the Olympics to actually be an Olympic Athlete.

In Semenya's case she has always been according to herself, her family and friends and even on her identification book a female. And she has always complied with whatever regulations the IAAF, WADA, ASA (Athletics South Africa) or any other Formal Body has required from her. She complied because if she didn't, she couldn't compete, and yes, she was at no time forced to do anything she didn't want to do. But if she didn't comply, it would have resulted in her not being able to compete and do something she loves. Athletics is her profession and she's damn good at it, and just like a lawyer or a doctor, compliance is important.

Even if you are a lawyer, and have a law degree, it doesn't necessarily mean you can practice law. If you are non-compliant, then your degree doesn't help at all.

 

[Which Tyler]

No-one's questioning her gender (anymore, or in this discussion here - except tall short, obviously, who was probably failing to be funny).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The Russian who "beat" Michael Conlan has withdrawn from his semi-final because his face is too mashed up, meanwhile Conlan is out and without a scratch. This will be my last post about this fight but I've followed Conlan's career pretty closely since he won bronze in London, himself and Joe Ward are the only boxers I've ever really followed, and since taking a beating from this Russian having just moved up a weight class at short notice in 2013 Conlan has been the best in his division he's the European, World and Commonwealth champion winning all his bouts in these apart from one 3-0 and he gave up four years in pro boxing to do this with Olympic gold being what should have been the peak. Boxing in this Olympics has been disgraceful and unless the IOC can make AIBA change severly for the better then it should be pulled from Tokyo. You'd see all the top amateurs going pro then and AIBA would have no choice but to change anyway.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Semenya's position is near impossible, but the credibility of the sport (if it has any left following all the drugs stuff) must override a tiny number of individual cases. Cue Human Rights lawyers.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Semenya's position is near impossible, but the credibility of the sport (if it has any left following all the drugs stuff) must override a tiny number of individual cases. Cue Human Rights lawyers.

How is it impossible? There are 2 athletes that are in the exact same boat as her, competing in the exact same event, that have the exact same disability as Semenya. Yet no news report is about those other 2 athletes. Sure they get mentioned here and there, but they aren't the focus of controversy.

Human Rights Lawyers will be able to argue on behalf of the "normal female" athletes as well as the intersexed athletes, and both would have a case to present. But honestly how far do we want to take this. In this era of accepting people as they are, and inviting them to be part of the community, why can't we do the same with Semenya???

 

[ratsapprentice]

why can't we do the same with Semenya???

For the same reason we separate men's and women's, and able/disabled sport in the first place.

There is too great a base physical or physiological difference between them that competition is rendered pointless or near invalid.

For me - an argument that says Semenya can compete without handicap is also saying that men and women should compete together.

 

[TRF_heineken]

For the same reason we separate men's and women's, and able/disabled sport in the first place.

There is too great a base physical or physiological difference between them that competition is rendered pointless or near invalid.

For me - an argument that says Semenya can compete without handicap is also saying that men and women should compete together.

But she was born with a handicap... Thus to comply with WADA she had to "Dope" to lower the T-levels because of her handicap. So in essence at one stage she was double-handicapped just to participate. She has been handicapped all her life.

There will be no end to this discussion/argument as there are just too many points/arguments to touch on with this topic.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So how about those Olympics.....

 

[unrated]

So how about those Olympics.....

The triathlon is due to start about 50 mins from now. Going to be an exciting race to watch.

 

[Superalexmarket]

Goodbye to the Golden Generation of Argentine Basketball, you brought glory and respect for almost 20 years... Thankyou!!

 

[ncurd]

So how about those Olympics.....

Bronze in Men's Double Badminton!

Silver in C2 spirit!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Barr misses bronze by .05 seconds... Gutting.

 

[Which Tyler]

Wonder if the Brownlees intend to mimic the German marathon twins, and cross the line hand in hand, and requiring a photo finish?

Will they hell!
They're both out for gold, and supportive of their brother only in being first loser.