England vs South Africa 20 / 11 / 2021

[Which Tyler]

Bit generous to Slade, I feel - Marchant would provide a better balance in the mid-field, but may necessitate a 2nd distributor at FB (Malins)

 

[BPM]

Eh I said after the AI and Lions we should have have dropped Farrell not Ford and have Ford starting for experience with a view to give Smith significant time in the second half.

Part of that is what has happened here Smith is finally being given a back line (minus Youngs) that he can utilise but we're playing the current world champions. That too much of a step up for just about everyone. We also have a front row issue and I'll be amazed if we have a balanced back row. Again against the world champions. So we have likely beaten pack which no fly half performs well behind.

We then lose and everyone says it's proof we need Farrell as Smith was unable to perform.

And I would have been in total agreement with you, but we all knew Farrell would not be dropped.

I am concerned about our pack in the set piece and yes, if there's no platform, Smith will likely struggle. By 'everyone', I assume you mean the media, because I'd hope that anyone who isn't a casual observer would realise that playing behind a beaten pack isn't the 10s fault. Despite Quins recent resurgence, Smith probably has more experience playing behind a beaten pack than Farrell does mind you.

I'm less concerned about our pack in the loose, so I think a lot will depend on how much we can limit the amount of scrums and lineouts.

 

[ncurd]

And I would have been in total agreement with you, but we all knew Farrell would not be dropped.

I am concerned about our pack in the set piece and yes, if there's no platform, Smith will likely struggle. By 'everyone', I assume you mean the media, because I'd hope that anyone who isn't a casual observer would realise that playing behind a beaten pack isn't the 10s fault. Despite Quins recent resurgence, Smith probably has more experience playing behind a beaten pack than Farrell does mind you.

I'm less concerned about our pack in the loose, so I think a lot will depend on how much we can limit the amount of scrums and lineouts.

This forum is usually good for understanding beaten pack although it's been hard at times. But if you go out into the weeds of social media it can be surprising how many people don't understand that. Mind you I'm in the group of people who never understood the level of worship Farrell had.

 

[Geordie]

Do people think the breakdown / rucks will be the crucial area?

 

[Jakedood]

Do people think the breakdown / rucks will be the crucial area?

I'm actually a little more worried about lineouts and mauls. Its one of those things where you can get 60/70 yards downfield by lineout, drive, collapse, kick to touch and repeat, and SA have done this very well since 2019, as well as historically

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Do people think the breakdown / rucks will be the crucial area?

It is always A crucial area. Whether it might translate into being THE crucial area I wouldn't be able to say. A lot also depends on how the game is refereed and how numerous those facets are (and whether there is consistency in interpretation). I started getting very worried there vs Wales where there weren't any scrums. Scrum, line out, mauls and the breakdown we are geared towards competing for possession and territory or 3 pointers. Take that away from us and if we aren't on top in the kicking game we struggle even given a ton of possession. My newest theory is that SAns get annoyed at referees that don't allow for a technically precise challenge at those tight exchanges quite simply as that is where we tend to shine and where we take national pride. Then on the flip side a pedantic referee is not what the rest of the world wants.



Just a little appetite whetter. SO much content for 6 minutes. I have to say I was quite surprised to realize that our recent W/L ratio vs England is 3/2. In my mind we still dominate the W tally but I suppose that is looking back too far whilst the RWC final looms large. Just having a look through these highlights just showed me the quality we are missing here:

3 Malherbe
4 Snyman
7 Du Toit
9 De Klerk
11 / 14 Kolbe / Nkosi

All 6 of which would probably walk into any side in WR.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Van Staden must be injured,

 

[Jakedood]

 

[Geordie]

Will our side be announced today?

 

[BPM]

Doubt it. We rarely announce it before Thursday.

 

[BPM]

This forum is usually good for understanding beaten pack although it's been hard at times. But if you go out into the weeds of social media it can be surprising how many people don't understand that. Mind you I'm in the group of people who never understood the level of worship Farrell had.

From what I've seen, the majority of people commenting on rugby on social media know very little and their opinions are largely driven by mainstream media. If you 'go into the weeds', I'm pretty sure there's be at least a couple of 'where's Cipriani' posts and hundreds of Sam Simmonds posts.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Doubt it. We rarely announce it before Thursday.

Yeah, gotta imagine we'll be leaving it as late as possible to see what happens with Marler

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Van Staden must be injured,

Forgot about Van Staden.

Still a lot to gripe about but the fact Jantjies and Reinach swapped out already increases my hopes. He has been dire starting.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Can we go uncontested scrums from the start?

What might happen in the front 5 over the course of the 80 could be X rated viewing. Even if Marler can start he's v unlikely to go deep into the game.

The days of white orcs on steroids feels a very long time ago.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The days of white orcs on steroids feels a very long time ago.

It is odd that we've only got one international class tighthead and even he's not known for his scrummaging

Stuart showed glimpses of being up to scratch, but glimpses is all they were, and then behind him there's literally no one (Heyes in a few years?)

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

It is odd that we've only got one international class tighthead and even he's not known for his scrummaging

Stuart showed glimpses of being up to scratch, but glimpses is all they were, and then behind him there's literally no one (Heyes in a few years?)

Don't be so rude about Dan Cole

 

[Eleutherarch]

It is always A crucial area. Whether it might translate into being THE crucial area I wouldn't be able to say. A lot also depends on how the game is refereed and how numerous those facets are (and whether there is consistency in interpretation). I started getting very worried there vs Wales where there weren't any scrums. Scrum, line out, mauls and the breakdown we are geared towards competing for possession and territory or 3 pointers. Take that away from us and if we aren't on top in the kicking game we struggle even given a ton of possession. My newest theory is that SAns get annoyed at referees that don't allow for a technically precise challenge at those tight exchanges quite simply as that is where we tend to shine and where we take national pride. Then on the flip side a pedantic referee is not what the rest of the world wants.

I'd agree with this. I don't think there is a way for referees to accurately and consistently factor in the minutiae of these exchanges in real time. However, it can be frustrating when actions that are technically correct in accordance with the laws are either shut down or actively penalised as infringements.

I'd be more concerned about straight-up, bizarre calls. I still do not understand why Etzebeth was penalised for that turnover in the latter stages of the first half against Scotland. What was the rationalisation for that?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It is odd that we've only got one international class tighthead and even he's not known for his scrummaging

Stuart showed glimpses of being up to scratch, but glimpses is all they were, and then behind him there's literally no one (Heyes in a few years?)

Yep and Wilco Louw would only be something like 4th choice for the Boks?

On the LH Marler is solid but he had his scrummaging issues back along - fair play he's learnt well from them. Genge has had his moments but isn't a consistent top class international scrummager. And we know all about Mako's issues. There's clear water between those 3 and the rest.

We're normally OK at hooker but a couple of injuries haven't left it looking too clever.

And top it all the Boks wheel out my fantasy lock pairing.

 

[Jashay]

Stuart is an odd one. I seem to remember reports that he was picked primarily because he's a good scrummager, but as you say we've only had glimpses.

At the same time, I think he's only made two starts; Georgia and Scotland. Outside of that we're always limited to glimpses because he only averages 11 minutes per game thanks to EJ's substitute policies. Maybe he's got it in him to step up to international scrum standard, but it's going to take a while to shine through at that rate.

How is he getting on at Bath? Not watched them for ages

 

[Geordie]

Stuart is an odd one. I seem to remember reports that he was picked primarily because he's a good scrummager, but as you say we've only had glimpses.

At the same time, I think he's only made two starts; Georgia and Scotland. Outside of that we're always limited to glimpses because he only averages 11 minutes per game thanks to EJ's substitute policies. Maybe he's got it in him to step up to international scrum standard, but it's going to take a while to shine through at that rate.

How is he getting on at Bath? Not watched them for ages

To be fair none of them are getting on well down at Bath....

Maybe a new coach will sort him out.