Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Amiga500]

Thats right a bloke has dedicated 20 years of his life and vast amounts of money to a sport and club he loves

An idiot that has thrown money away on building an unsustainable empire with no end to that un-sustainability in sight. See that 20 million he is on about the PRL losing every year - Saracens probably account for over half of it.

and all you can do is call him a cock and pig. You really are a one eyed clown.

Yep. If he is stupid enough to build a squad paid millions to be watched by 2 men and a dog - then he can be stupid enough to pay for it.

The solution for Wray is to downsize the Sarries wage bill to a level commensurate with their income and accept that his dreams of a Saracens empire were idiotic. But that would mean sucking up his pride. Which isn't going to happen when you still chase the dream... and if the entire sport is ruined in the process. So what.


If you can't see the bigger picture here rather than become obsessed with the money of a few individuals - thats not my problem. Its yours.

 

[munstermuffin]

HC money?

That's not a whole lot and not 1 cent of HC money has any link with Pro12

 

[Amiga500]

I am not saying individuals should run rampant, but neither should unions have complete control.

Of course they (unions) should (have complete control).

Its supposed to be a sport first and a business second.

Where is the interest to invest in a club if the unions have all the power? Rugby is like everything else in the world, it needs money (despite others thinking otherwise).

Rugby gets plenty of money from the international game. More than enough to meet the needs of grants for capital projects at clubs/regions so they can grow organically.

If clubs can't secure investment, and are unable to make money, they will go bust.

If they need investment for operating costs, then they are a failing sports organisation anyway.

If they need investment for capital projects, that is where the financial strength of the union comes in.

Unions can't prop up numerous clubs, so individuals must shoulder some of the burden.

Why not?

Only in Wales, England and France are professional clubs/regions private... well, I suppose Italy and Wales is a half-way house.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Unions can't prop up numerous clubs, so individuals must shoulder some of the burden.

How does it work for the SR teams?

AFAIK they are Union run, but still compete commercially with each other?

 

[McTallshort]

That's not a whole lot and not 1 cent of HC money has any link with Pro12

So the 11 sides from the pro 12 in the HC get no money at all from the HC? And all the sides in the the rbo 12 will be perfectly able to manage without that unlinked money?

Muffin please

 

[McTallshort]

How does it work for the SR teams?

AFAIK they are Union run, but still compete commercially with each other?

The rfu missed the chance rats its done, forget it and I doubt they would have done a better job anyway

 

[Draggs]

How does it work for the SR teams?

http://www.chiefs.co.nz/news/chiefs-licence-issued.html Chiefs experimenting with different ownership. Sounds decent to me, provinces have ownership in the franchise as well as private investments.

Not to mention huge sponsorship deals. Cell C and Growthpoint signed a deal with the Sharks which I can imagine is pretty hefty. Vodacom Blue Bulls, DHL Stormers, formerly MTN Lions. Plenty of non-Union investment. Of course this differs from having private owners, but there is a balance that must be found for each situation.

It is an ever changing situation. Rebels were a private entity as well. It failed more numerous reasons. The fact that people in Melbourne aren't interested in Union was the primary one.

Everything is a business, and rugby must be treated as one, just like football, NFL, etc. It is a product, what will people buy? The football clubs in Wales are more attractive to punters, hence solid attendance. Club interest =/= International interest, nobody really cares about Wales in football.

A union having control over every aspect isn't viable. What if, in the case of the WRU, the union doesn't care about regional rugby? They make it their mission to put WRU profits and success first. Regions are there solely to put players into the national side, and that is changing.

 

[McTallshort]

Of course they (unions) should (have complete control).

Its supposed to be a sport first and a business second..

Oh yes because the unions are full to the brim of selfless, hardworking, sport first orientated people.....

 

[McTallshort]

I wouldn't disagree, but to be fair, it works both ways. He knew the deal when he got into it.

Which is why he will fight tooth and nail to protect it.

 

[munstermuffin]

So the 11 sides from the pro 12 in the HC get no money at all from the HC? And all the sides in the the rbo 12 will be perfectly able to manage without that unlinked money?

Muffin please

No more than the English or French clubs. But HC money's isn't the big generator. So yes money helps but your point isn't true as I said IRFU make their money from a lot of outlets and all provinces do well with sponsorship deals so again no more than English or French clubs need tv money. And it Union not provinces who get the money in Ireland

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.chiefs.co.nz/news/chiefs-licence-issued.html Chiefs experimenting with different ownership. Sounds decent to me, provinces have ownership in the franchise as well as private investments.

Not to mention huge sponsorship deals. Cell C and Growthpoint signed a deal with the Sharks which I can imagine is pretty hefty. Vodacom Blue Bulls, DHL Stormers, formerly MTN Lions. Plenty of non-Union investment. Of course this differs from having private owners, but there is a balance that must be found for each situation.

Everything is a business, and rugby must be treated as one, just like football, NFL, etc. It is a product, what will people buy? The football clubs in Wales are more attractive to punters, hence solid attendance. Club interest =/= International interest, nobody really cares about Wales in football.

The model the chiefs are currently using looks fantastic.

I completely agree that a balance must be found. Does Wray sound like he wants anything other than total control to you?

It is not a business. The business is there to service the sport - not the other way around.
That's not to say you don't market it as such.

 

[Amiga500]

So the 11 sides from the pro 12 in the HC get no money at all from the HC? And all the sides in the the rbo 12 will be perfectly able to manage without that unlinked money?

Muffin please

So... if the Pro12 is being kept afloat by HEC money, does that mean the PRL isn't even close to being kept afloat by the HEC money? [and no, an extra 10% is gonna make f all difference]

 

[Amiga500]

Oh yes because the unions are full to the brim of selfless, hardworking, sport first orientated people.....

The union's remit is to the sport.

Nigel Wray's remit is to Nigel Wray.

 

[Draggs]

The union's remit is to the sport.

Nigel Wray's remit is to Nigel Wray.

The unions remit is to the union. They aren't involved in rugby just out of the goodness of their heart. They too are a business.

 

[Amiga500]

The unions remit is to the union. They aren't involved in rugby just out of the goodness of their heart. They too are a business.

http://www.rfu.com/abouttherfu

The Rugby Football Union is the national governing body for grassroots and elite rugby in England, with 2,000 autonomous rugby clubs in its membership.

The clubs are grouped within 35 Constituent Bodies (CBs), comprised of counties – some individual, some combined – the three armed forces, Oxford and Cambridge Universities, England Schools Rugby Football Union and England Students.

All of this is supported by the RFU's 50 Rugby Development Officers, six Area Managers and 120 Community Rugby Coaches across the country, who provide some 30,000 coaching sessions a year for young people.

The RFU employs approximately 500 paid staff and helps to train and support more than 60,000 volunteers whose roles include:
Organising rugby activity, including the playing, coaching and refereeing of matches and recreational rugby at all levels
Supporting the volunteer workforce
Working with clubs to secure grants and loans for facilities
Fundraising, handling money and insurance
Offering medical advice and support
Committee member/trustee
Secretarial, administration and clerical help

The RFU endeavours to operate to PLC standards but it is neither a company nor a charity. It is registered under the Industrial & Provident Societies Acts 1965-78 and is, in layman's terms, a "Friendly Society". This means that the RFU is owned by its member clubs and aims to make a profit to reinvest in rugby union in England.

Its income is made up of funding from sponsorship, government, ticket sales from international matches at Twickenham, hospitality and catering, a travel company and television rights.

 

[McTallshort]

No more than the English or French clubs. But HC money's isn't the big generator. So yes money helps but your point isn't true as I said IRFU make their money from a lot of outlets and all provinces do well with sponsorship deals so again no more than English or French clubs need tv money. And it Union not provinces who get the money in Ireland

and who pays for the provinces?

 

[Amiga500]

and who pays for the provinces?

Again, if you'd bother to read the post - he has said provinces generate income of their own from sponsorship deals. To that you can add gate receipts.


But yes, each receives a grant from the IRFU annually in a similar manner to the RFU grants to the PRL clubs.

 

[McTallshort]

http://www.rfu.com/abouttherfu

Your so naive you remind me of some russian film I was watching once, there was some young well meaning well educated girl who believed utterly that the only way her country could succeed was by following the 'party' ended up in a gulag in Siberia in the end.

 

[smartcooky]

Oh yes because the unions are full to the brim of selfless, hardworking, sport first orientated people.....

Yes, in fact they are, or at least our Union is.

The NZRU Executive might be mostly businessmen, but the NZRU Board (who are the representatives of the grass-roots game) are rugby people through and through. Among their number are former All Blacks and Provincial Union representative players.

"The NZRU Board is charged with setting strategy, direction and policy for the NZRU, and is ultimately responsible for the decisions and actions of NZRU management and staff. Many of the decisions concerning New Zealand's national teams, domestic competitions, financial management and rugby traditions can only be made by a vote of the NZRU Board"

Some NZRU Executives (President, Vice President and Chief Executive Officer) may attend Board meetings but are not Board Members and cannot vote on Board matters.

The Board has the power to overrule the NZRU Executive, the most recent time being when the Executive wanted to cut the ITM Cup back to 10 teams, and throw the other four back into the totally amateur Heartland Championship. The NZRU Board ruled that the good of the game at grass-roots level came first, and the business considerations came second. They pointed out that while it was true that the ITM Cup was losing money, it was a cost of doing business. The benefits of allowing it to continue outweighed monetary considerations, and that downsizing it would be detrimental to the game here.


I would think something similar exists in the RFU

The RFU's first and foremost concern is the betterment of the game at all levels throughout England. A Club owner's first and foremost concern his his bank balance.

 

[McTallshort]

Yes, in fact they are, or at least our Union is."

Well you must be very lucky then