Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Maverick1987]

The point I was trying to make is that somebody quite a way out of Llanelli could support the Scarlets as their pro team with the wider spread of teams. Whilst in France for instance, with a densely populated club scene in the south west there is more competition with each club and there are more options for a pro team to support.

A problem for the Pro12 and Wales in particular is there are too many matches on TV in my opinion as well. Virtually every Welsh game is on free TV.

I live in South Wales and know that the regions don't work people from ebbw vale don't support Newport dragons people from Pontypridd don't support cardiff . They just won't it's like putting Manchester United and Manchester city together and saying here you go you can all support a team together now . It's bull**** and has left a lot of valleys teams supporters feeling let down and dissapointed . Wales has larger rugby issues than just gates trust me

 

[psychic duck]

I live in South Wales and know that the regions don't work people from ebbw vale don't support Newport dragons people from Pontypridd don't support cardiff . They just won't it's like putting Manchester United and Manchester city together and saying here you go you can all support a team together now . It's bull**** and has left a lot of valleys teams supporters feeling let down and dissapointed . Wales has larger rugby issues than just gates trust me

Nobody cares what the Pontypridd villagists think, they just can't get over the fact they had their own Celtic Warriors team and mucked it up. And now are just annoying all those who do still have regions.

 

[Maverick1987]

Nobody cares what the Pontypridd villagists think, they just can't get over the fact they had their own Celtic Warriors team and mucked it up. And now are just annoying all those who do still have regions.

Lol very sensible answer . Ponty have 4k go to Sardis road every week whilst Cardiff blues had to move back to the arms park because they couldn't get near filling the bottom tier at CCS . The point is that a large number of teams in Wales feel cut off by the way the regions are set up . Do u seriously think the way it is now is best for welsh rugby ?

 

[Amiga500]

Do u seriously think the way it is now is best for welsh rugby ?

It is better than the old club system. Every single measure of performance (on the pitch at least) bears that out.


Is it the best? Big question, and to be honest, one we are unlikely to ever get the answer to. Ireland are blessed with having the provinces stretch back centuries in geography and over a century in rugby [and having a (comparatively) even distribution of population throughout the country (OK, Connacht aside, 3/4 ain't bad)]. Therefore it was much easier for the IRFU to get punters to buy into the professional provincial scene... and enough of them to go through the turnstiles of province to make it financially viable. [Connacht still needing work due to the lower population]

The Welsh regions are never going to develop 100+ years of history and attachment in 10 years. It'll take a generation to see it properly bed in.

 

[Tony Manx]

Sam Waburton tells the BBC that he agrees with the viewpoint of the English and French and that their proposals will make the Rabo more competitive. He is happy as long as Cardiff are playing!

 

[Peat]

Just read this article by Dean Ryan, and I have to say, it is the first time I've felt genuinely swayed by the English arguments. In particular, the fact that the Heineken Cup pays less than the Premiership and the Anglo-Welsh cup is ludicrous. Yes, I'd still say that the proposed redistribution is dangerously inequal, and would point the finger at the fact that PRL have been distributing funds equally instead of to the clubs doing it but that is the sort of issue that makes things look untenable.

Which raises interesting questions - who are PRL's PR people, and how much are they cheating out of them?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/sep/12/heineken-cup-reform-english-french

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I think my main problem with the Franco-English proposal is cutting the Heineken Cup to 20 teams in the hope of boosting the Amlin Cup. The Amlin Cup is meaningless. As a Leinster fan, I'm delighted they won it once they were in it but in general, nobody cares about a second tier competition. It the same in football where despite constant UEFA remodelling of the Europa League, it's still a hindrance rather than adding anything to European football.

An 8-8-8 split between the three leagues with English and French clubs getting a larger slice is what I think will happen in the end. Longer term, it'll be interesting to see the impact BT Sport and Al Jazeera have in TV deals once they're established entities.

 

[Tony Manx]

England's clubs are contracted in H Cup until 2015 says Martyn Thomas the former chairman of the RFU. BBC Wales report him as saying "There is a contractual obligation there that the RFU can enforce"...but will they?!!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Because Martyn Thomas is to be trusted... :lol:

 

[McTallshort]

It is better than the old club system. Every single measure of performance (on the pitch at least) bears that out.


Is it the best? Big question, and to be honest, one we are unlikely to ever get the answer to. Ireland are blessed with having the provinces stretch back centuries in geography and over a century in rugby [and having a (comparatively) even distribution of population throughout the country (OK, Connacht aside, 3/4 ain't bad)]. Therefore it was much easier for the IRFU to get punters to buy into the professional provincial scene... and enough of them to go through the turnstiles of province to make it financially viable. [Connacht still needing work due to the lower population]

The Welsh regions are never going to develop 100+ years of history and attachment in 10 years. It'll take a generation to see it properly bed in.

Yes but the irish regions have more than history, they also have no salary cap, better funding and tax breaks for players thats why they are so strong compared to the Welsh regional model.

 

[Amiga500]

Yes but the irish regions have more than history, they also have no salary cap, better funding and tax breaks for players thats why they are so strong compared to the Welsh regional model.

The regions have a salary cap as a result of their bad funding.

Much of the reasoning for their fund deficit is conflicts between the clubs and the (incredibly shortsighted) WRU. The WRU should have formed the regions. They should have owned the regions like the IRFU own the provinces.

Instead, we've multiple separate entities constantly sniping at each other as they try to improve their own position, irrespective of the consequences to others.

The tax thing I accept is something beyond the direct control of the WRU/regions, and it is a factor. Maybe its something for the WRU to take up with the Welsh assembly...

 

[Tony Manx]

The tax thing I accept is something beyond the direct control of the WRU/regions, and it is a factor. Maybe its something for the WRU to take up with the Welsh assembly...

Do the Assembly have any power over taxation? I thought that was a bone of contention that they did not?

 

[McTallshort]

Dont think they do, taxation is one of the main things controlled by those nice people at westminster...

 

[dullonien]

The regions have a salary cap as a result of their bad funding.

Much of the reasoning for their fund deficit is conflicts between the clubs and the (incredibly shortsighted) WRU. The WRU should have formed the regions. They should have owned the regions like the IRFU own the provinces.

Instead, we've multiple separate entities constantly sniping at each other as they try to improve their own position, irrespective of the consequences to others.

The tax thing I accept is something beyond the direct control of the WRU/regions, and it is a factor. Maybe its something for the WRU to take up with the Welsh assembly...

The wru (Pickering) tried to create sensible regions under their control, but a few greedy clubs refused (namely Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport). The system we have in place now was the only one which the clubs agreed to. Couple that with the miss-management of the Warriors by Samuels and the WRU + very low attendances and we're left with this broken mess. The clubs need to take a lot of responsibility imo, but I feel that a lot of fans are unaware and blame the WRU automatically. Still, we've gotta make do, and to do so the regions and WRU need to work together now, with more of the WRU's profits going to help the cash strapped regions.

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.espn.co.uk/blogs/rugby/story/198553.html

 

[smartcooky]

http://www.espn.co.uk/blogs/rugby/story/198553.html

Divide & conquer?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

In the Sunday Times today both Stephen Jones and Peter O'Reilly have said that Leinster have approached the leaders of the Franco-English alliance about participation. Jones doesn't expand upon it but O'Reilly has a quote from Mick Dawson the Leinster CEO saying they can't afford to be outside European competition. Could the provinces and IRFU be at loggerheads?

It was also suggested that Leinster have proposed a 7-7-8 (English, French, Pro 12) split for Heineken Cup participation.

http://www.espn.co.uk/blogs/rugby/story/198553.html

Interesting in that it could lead to something else. No doubt the Welsh regions would like this proposal. The IRB wouldn't like the fact that Ireland, Scotland and Italy would be left out of the loop. What would be the chances of a B&I League developing with the two Italian teams being absorbed into the Top 14/16?

 

[j'nuh]

Would love that. (I know a lot of people wouldn't.)

But what would the Irish/Scottish/Italians do?

 

[Tony Manx]

Wray is a megalomaniac who sees this as a way to ditch the also rans in the Premierships and move his and the big ones into an international club competition! How else does this lie with his desire to have Turks games played in Dubai, SA AND NY

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Turks are Scarlets, not Saracens :huh: