RWC: Ireland - United States (11-09-2011, 18:00)

[dangandan]

Think is that O'Callaghan, D'Arcy and O'Driscoll to a certain extent are only surviving based on their performances in past not on form.
We haven't blooded new guys into the squad in them positions and well now we are caught in a puzzle.

Hagan, O'Malley, Spence, Felix Jones, Murray, Domnic Ryan and few others should've been thrown in training squads 2 years ago and look back then they'd have little chance of gametime but they'd be given a chance and would benefit from experience.

Um yes it's a very sad day for the supporters. When picking the team, is there no opportunity for the players to have an input? I would have thought that players from Leinster (not meaning to be bias, but considering their performances) would be able to pass on a winning formula onto the Irish squad.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Hagan, O'Malley, Spence, Felix Jones, Murray, Domnic Ryan and few others should've been thrown in training squads 2 years ago and look back then they'd have little chance of gametime but they'd be given a chance and would benefit from experience.

I disagree entirely.

Two years ago Jamie Hagan was Connacht's backup tighthead behind Robbie Morris.
Two year ago Eoin O'Malley had barely even played for Leinster.
Two years ago Nevin Spence hadn't yet made his debut for a dire Ulster team.
Two years ago Felix Jones was behind Paul Warwick in the Munster fullback stakes.
Two years ago Conor Murray was ****.
Two years ago Dominic Ryan had perhaps one Leinster appearance.

Jones and Murray were capped when they deserved to be capped and not a minute sooner. Ryan and Spence could benefit from training with the national team but neither are good enough to make the World Cup squad and have too many flaws in their game at present. O'Malley isn't as good as O'Driscoll, Bowe, Earls, McFadden, Cave or Spence at outside centre. I don't think he has as much talent as Leinster teammate Brendan Macken either. Hagan is the exception in that he deserved to be called up to the 6 Nations squad and definitely deserved a couple of caps before the World Cup.

Also, while I agree that O'Callaghan and D'arcy are spent forces, O'Driscoll is still our best outside centre. He's not as good as he once was but he's pushing 33, what do we expect!

 

[munstermuffin]

I disagree entirely.

Two years ago Jamie Hagan was Connacht's backup tighthead behind Robbie Morris.
Two year ago Eoin O'Malley had barely even played for Leinster.
Two years ago Nevin Spence hadn't yet made his debut for a dire Ulster team.
Two years ago Felix Jones was behind Paul Warwick in the Munster fullback stakes.
Two years ago Conor Murray was ****.
Two years ago Dominic Ryan had perhaps one Leinster appearance.

Jones and Murray were capped when they deserved to be capped and not a minute sooner. Ryan and Spence could benefit from training with the national team but neither are good enough to make the World Cup squad and have too many flaws in their game at present. O'Malley isn't as good as O'Driscoll, Bowe, Earls, McFadden, Cave or Spence at outside centre. I don't think he has as much talent as Leinster teammate Brendan Macken either. Hagan is the exception in that he deserved to be called up to the 6 Nations squad and definitely deserved a couple of caps before the World Cup.

Also, while I agree that O'Callaghan and D'arcy are spent forces, O'Driscoll is still our best outside centre. He's not as good as he once was but he's pushing 33, what do we expect!

Those were off the top of my head Snoop but the general idea is we should've had a plan B,C,D,E and even an F. I used them as rough examples as in now.
I'm not saying cap these guys and well my main point is we don't have alternative plans in case guys loose form.
O'Callaghans main competition is from Cullen and Ryan - Cullen is getting old too and Ryan is the next best lock but still we need more.
D'Arcy only has competition from Wallace and well it seems McFadden is a bag carrier in squad but we need to have the form guys in.
If BOD gets injured then we seem to have Earls as next in line and well he is an International Winger but not a 13.
I agree BOD is our best 13 when on form but now the man doesn't have form and well it seems his injury is still on his mind and effecting his game. I'm not saying drop him just simply this squad hasn't been expanded and tested properly. Like we've seen Aus and SA come on their winter tours here and take some beatings while experiment with guys and then you'd think are they gone bad then close to a RWC they are a force to be reckoned with and well Aus is the example now. We have to take chances in the AI's and Summer Tours and just blood 1 or 2 guys in.

 

[MunsterMan]

I've been following Kidney teams for as long as I can remember. Performances like this are part and parcel of it. Wait for us to tear in to Australia next week like rabid ****ing dogs. How did Munster get on the week before they beat Sale or Gloucester in the Heineken Cup? How did Ireland play the week before they comprehensively outplayed and beat the undefeated England off the park in the 6 nations this year?

There are big performances in this Irish team. An upset is on the cards next week. Or maybe my heart is tricking my head into believing such a romantic theory

 

[dangandan]

I disagree entirely.

Two years ago Jamie Hagan was Connacht's backup tighthead behind Robbie Morris.
Two year ago Eoin O'Malley had barely even played for Leinster.
Two years ago Nevin Spence hadn't yet made his debut for a dire Ulster team.
Two years ago Felix Jones was behind Paul Warwick in the Munster fullback stakes.
Two years ago Conor Murray was ****.
Two years ago Dominic Ryan had perhaps one Leinster appearance.

Jones and Murray were capped when they deserved to be capped and not a minute sooner. Ryan and Spence could benefit from training with the national team but neither are good enough to make the World Cup squad and have too many flaws in their game at present. O'Malley isn't as good as O'Driscoll, Bowe, Earls, McFadden, Cave or Spence at outside centre. I don't think he has as much talent as Leinster teammate Brendan Macken either. Hagan is the exception in that he deserved to be called up to the 6 Nations squad and definitely deserved a couple of caps before the World Cup.

Also, while I agree that O'Callaghan and D'arcy are spent forces, O'Driscoll is still our best outside centre. He's not as good as he once was but he's pushing 33, what do we expect!

I wouldn't have a clue how well youngsters were doing 2 years only because i can't remember but i think we have never given a player a proper amount of time at centre when BOD wasn't playing. It's a position we've never seems to focus on just because we knew BOD was there. It always seemed like we fitted in someone who had test experience when he wasn't playing in case we would lose. We need to be more rash and see how some of the youngsters will do at international level. Other countries do it, why can't we? It's like as soon as Brian O'Driscoll hit the scene we felt if we dropped him we'd be ****, but that's not the case. We'd actually be offensively better and i think our players are capable at club level and international level to hold a defensive pattern. BOD learned his defensive duties through experience not because he's a god. This is just an example, i feel we need to do this for all positions on the pitch.

 

[Peat]

While I applaud Snoopy's post in general, I feel I should point out that Spence was injured during the WC training period and therefore wasn't considered - and the squad announcement explicitly said that, leading me to conclude that if he hadn't been injured he would have been included.

I'm not sure Spence is good enough for most WC squads and before the season would have agreed about his flaws (they appear to be getting ironed out very quickly), but do believe he might be better than some of those there and certainly offers something different to most of Ireland's other centres - namely, he's very strong and very quick. Possibly should have gone... but was never going to after getting injured. And certainly shouldn't have been in the national training squad at the age of 19.

 

[munstermuffin]

I've been following Kidney teams for as long as I can remember. Performances like this are part and parcel of it. Wait for us to tear in to Australia next week like rabid ****ing dogs. How did Munster get on the week before they beat Sale or Gloucester in the Heineken Cup? How did Ireland play the week before they comprehensively outplayed and beat the undefeated England off the park in the 6 nations this year?

There are big performances in this Irish team. An upset is on the cards next week. Or maybe my heart is tricking my head into believing such a romantic theory

I agree 100% with that but I'm on about the bigger picture and this isn't DK's fault - many have done same before and some will after but we need to bring through depth - Like are you telling me Buckley is in top 4 props Ireland has to offer. No he got in through experience. I seen this guy daily training with Munster and yes he has raw power in open play but his main job is scrummage and lifting and he is careless at both, and let's not forget even if he didn't get injured he would've still finished season as Munster's 3rd choice TH prop.

 

[Peat]

I agree 100% with that but I'm on about the bigger picture and this isn't DK's fault - many have done same before and some will after but we need to bring through depth - Like are you telling me Buckley is in top 4 props Ireland has to offer. No he got in through experience. I seen this guy daily training with Munster and yes he has raw power in open play but his main job is scrummage and lifting and he is careless at both, and let's not forget even if he didn't get injured he would've still finished season as Munster's 3rd choice TH prop.

You're saying it isn't Kidney's fault if he fails to bring through sufficent depth and not blood the alternatives?

 

[dangandan]

I agree 100% with that but I'm on about the bigger picture and this isn't DK's fault - many have done same before and some will after but we need to bring through depth - Like are you telling me Buckley is in top 4 props Ireland has to offer. No he got in through experience. I seen this guy daily training with Munster and yes he has raw power in open play but his main job is scrummage and lifting and he is careless at both, and let's not forget even if he didn't get injured he would've still finished season as Munster's 3rd choice TH prop.

I don't get it. Buckley is ****. If a coach picks him solely because he's played for Ireland before then he's a dumbf***.

 

[munstermuffin]

You're saying it isn't Kidney's fault if he fails to bring through sufficent depth and not blood the alternatives?

Well I'm saying Kidney isn't the only one to have ignored this aspect as every coach seems to be in it for the now and not planning for 12/18/24 months down the road.
Eddie was same and when I said this isn't DK's fault I meant it as he is following trend and well I don't know if it's IRFU top brass or management but simply our team has been too settled - hell even our training squads have been too settled and well it puts players in their comfort zones and well that is part of this poor performance.

All the province's fans are more vocal and if a player plays bad with province ie D. O'Callaghan last year the coach is almost forced to make the change, but it seems this isn't the case with Ireland.
My example from being involved with Munster closely is this DOC, Leamy, O'Leary and Buckley all lost their spots in starting 15 and 22 due to poor performances and fans showing their disapproval. At this same period these players were all still very much in the Irish 22 and well that shows an obvious flaw.

 

[dangandan]

Well I'm saying Kidney isn't the only one to have ignored this aspect as every coach seems to be in it for the now and not planning for 12/18/24 months down the road.
Eddie was same and when I said this isn't DK's fault I meant it as he is following trend and well I don't know if it's IRFU top brass or management but simply our team has been too settled - hell even our training squads have been too settled and well it puts players in their comfort zones and well that is part of this poor performance.

All the province's fans are more vocal and if a player plays bad with province ie D. O'Callaghan last year the coach is almost forced to make the change, but it seems this isn't the case with Ireland.
My example from being involved with Munster closely is this DOC, Leamy, O'Leary and Buckley all lost their spots in starting 15 and 22 due to poor performances and fans showing their disapproval. At this same period these players were all still very much in the Irish 22 and well that shows an obvious flaw.

I see what you mean now. And it is ridiculous that we see guys playing for Ireland when they can barely make it for the their clubs.

 

[raziel_eire]

I see little sense in excusing Kidney for making the same mistakes as predecessors, just because they made them and that's the way it is.

No, that should not be the way it is and if the IRFU have an ounce of sense and appoint Conor O'Shea as the next national boss then I honestly cannot see the same mistakes as being made now, being made again during his tenure.
It's Kidney's job to blood the next batch of players whilst remaining competitive, so making selections such as bringing Buckley & Paddy Wallace and shoe-horning Earls into 13 are HIS fault.

The point about Buckley not being 4th best TH is very valid, same question can be posed for D. Ryan and P. Wallace... are they really the next best in line? Doubt it...

Would bringing the likes of Hagan/Wilkinson, Toner/O'Donoghue, Keatley/Cave/Spence (insert your own batch of possible future players here) have been any worse? Sure they may not be up to scratch right now, but are the current incumbents really any more "up to scratch"? At least involving them might have some good in the long term, building their experience, showing them some faith, increasing national setup & tactic familiarity.

What point is there in the likes of Buckley, Ryan and Wallace (P)? They aren't the future, they aren't good enough now and serve little purpose bar their supposed ability to be versatile. Mediocre in lots of positions is not what we should be aiming for... we'll likely lose anyway if they are played, so why not have someone with prospects play their part... the current result may not be improved upon, but at least the future's might.

Kidney & his coaches MUST take their part in the blame of what is going on.

Christ, we're only 1 game into the RWC and I'm already this pessimistic? That is not an endorsement for the current state of the, what should be a good, Irish national team.

Oh, and saying we'll turn up against the Wallabies like we did against England in last seasons 6N... great! So we can expect another 6 months of mistakes and mediocrity until our next good performance... and another 3rd place in the 2012 6 Nations? Because that's acceptable right?

If this is our level, colour me broken, beaten & scarred

 

[profitius]

I've been following Kidney teams for as long as I can remember. Performances like this are part and parcel of it. Wait for us to tear in to Australia next week like rabid ****ing dogs. How did Munster get on the week before they beat Sale or Gloucester in the Heineken Cup? How did Ireland play the week before they comprehensively outplayed and beat the undefeated England off the park in the 6 nations this year?

There are big performances in this Irish team. An upset is on the cards next week. Or maybe my heart is tricking my head into believing such a romantic theory

I agree. I remember Munster in the Celtic league in years gone by. Playing terrible stuff one week but when the HEC came around they always played well. Kidney has planned all along for the Australia game. Not the USA game not the warm up matches. Theres no expectations on the team now and thats the perfect position to go into the match. They havn't played well but Kidney is superb at mind games and alot of sport is about the mind.

 

[raziel_eire]

Pity he wasn't as superb at mind games, as he is now, during last years 6 Nations or for at least 1 of our warm-up games.

And it doesn't say much for our players state of mind if they have to be beaten and/or play mistake and error riddled rugby for sustained periods before they can get their head straight and play as I suspect we all know they can.
Batter any ol' dog enough and soon or later it will bite... the point being we should not have to be that battered old dog to realise we need to come out fighting and play some decent rugby.

Good performances should be the standard of a good team... the result might not always go your way but if you want to be considered good, then you have to be able to glean something good and sustainable from the majority of performances.
We've been poor more then we have been good for what is starting to feels like a long time now... the mindset of occasional reminders that we could be or can be good should be something we could consign to the past. Lets deliver and deliver consistently... please?

 

[MunsterMan]

I'm not saying it is the ideal situation, I have no idea what context my post was made in as i did not read the thread before posting. All I am saying is that I expect a performance from Ireland against the Wallabies. A Big performance.

Kidney is not the only problem. How the hell does Gaffney still have a job?

 

[Surefire]

This was the sixth Ireland match I got a chance to watch this year, and every time I get the feeling that they are going to explode and just play out of their minds. I am looking forward to the Australia match because I would like to see it happen then.

 

[munstermuffin]

To be honest I'd rate Ryan ahead of Toner and Co. I admit Tuohy is close but I believe Ryan is our 4th best lock at moment

 

[King_D'Arcy]

To be honest I'd rate Ryan ahead of Toner and Co. I admit Tuohy is close but I believe Ryan is our 4th best lock at moment

Christ that's grim!