• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

What changes with Eddie Jones

Mrs. Peter Quinn

International
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
5,403
Country Flag

Great Britain

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

Importance of the captain is overegged imo.
Instead, make sure there's a senior leadership team of 4 - 5 players in the squad and make it known to them and to the squad that they have a resonsibility for leadership of the team, albeit perhaps with the formal captain most prominent.

Hartley (if he plays)
Brown
Get Launchbury involved there as 'practise' for the future.
Mullan?

...And here's the problem. Without Parling, I'm struggling to find a 4th name. Cole? Haskell may not make the cut. Even the names I gave I'm not too confident about.
I just wish Tom Rees was with us here today...
 

Peat

International
Joined
Jun 11, 2010
Messages
9,990
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Ulster

I think you've hit why people are so hung up over who's captain - there is no senior leadership team of note. We're looking for players to emerge but nobody seems to want to do so.
 

Don't Skip Leg Day

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
4,076
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Northampton

And now all the senior type players arnt really first choice any more

Haskell
Wood
Robshaw
Parling
Cole
Hartley
Marler


None of those guaranteed a starting place.
 

Mrs. Peter Quinn

International
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
5,403
Country Flag

Great Britain

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

I think you've hit why people are so hung up over who's captain - there is no senior leadership team of note. We're looking for players to emerge but nobody seems to want to do so.

Good point.. Choose the right players first I guess...I can't help but note that the captains past and present of most international teams have been close to 1st name on the team sheet for their teams. I think we need to find the right players of the right calibre with a complex understanding of the game, and a leadership group should follow out of that when they become experienced enough.




And now all the senior type players arnt really first choice any more.

Haskell
Wood
Robshaw
Parling
Cole
Hartley
Marler


None of those guaranteed a starting place.

...and they're all stupid or bad at rugby :p
No, I don't mean that. It's not an ideal group to choose from, though. When building a leadership group you want to be sure that they will be there for the long term.
I don't have confidence that any of those players will be in the EPS in two years time, except perhaps Cole...
 

Old Hooker

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Messages
5,494
Country Flag

England

Importance of the captain is overegged imo.
Instead, make sure there's a senior leadership team of 4 - 5 players in the squad and make it known to them and to the squad that they have a resonsibility for leadership of the team, albeit perhaps with the formal captain most prominent.

Hartley (if he plays)
Brown
Get Launchbury involved there as 'practise' for the future.
Mullan?

...And here's the problem. Without Parling, I'm struggling to find a 4th name. Cole? Haskell may not make the cut. Even the names I gave I'm not too confident about.
I just wish Tom Rees was with us here today...

Rees is still only 31. What a shame.

Agree that you need a leadership team, but don't understate the captain's role. You absolutely need someone who stands apart, puts their hand up for the responsibility and sets the tempo. But as you suggest, they're thin on the ground.
 

j'nuh

First XV
Joined
Sep 8, 2011
Messages
4,209
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Gloucester

I think younger players have leadership skills in them but have no reason to show it because those roles are expected of the senior figures, and people naturally turn to the senior figures to lead. I think players you generally don't think of as leaders will become leaders when the senior figures such as Hartley, Robshaw, Haskell, Wood, Parling etc. move on.
 

The Jones Boy

First XV
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
2,748
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

New Zealand

...and they're all stupid or bad at rugby :p
No, I don't mean that. It's not an ideal group to choose from, though. When building a leadership group you want to be sure that they will be there for the long term.
I don't have confidence that any of those players will be in the EPS in two years time, except perhaps Cole...

Marler will be, he's still very young and has all the attributes to develop into a champion. He just needs more time on the pitch and someone like Eddie Jones to give him confidence.
 

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)

G.O.A.T
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
23,846
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leicester

More time on the pitch?

He has been England starter and harlequins starter for ages, time on the pitch isn't an issue.
 

RedruthRFC

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,445
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

England

He's still a kid though Tigs

In propping terms, I guess that as a 25 year old he is, despite his 37 caps. It's crazy that he seems like he's been around for so long, especially when you remember that he crammed a season on DR to Worthing and one on DR to Esher into his career. Having been through the academy system, he has a lot of rugby under his belt, his strength may improve slightly, but I'm not sure that we can expect him to learn much that he hasn't picked already. Hopefully playing under a new forwards coach will prove me wrong!
 

ratsapprentice

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Messages
12,094
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

England

His strength should continue to improve well into his 30's - as should everyone's.
 

RedruthRFC

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,445
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

England

His strength should continue to improve well into his 30's - as should everyone's.

Indeed. Lazy wording, replace may with should. This seems to be your thing, is there an average percentage gain in the big lifts that elite athletes can expect from 25 to say 33? How much do you thing an average strength gain would improve him as a player?

Anecdotally I've heard stories of well respected internationals who hardly need to put plates on the bar in the gym, but look no worse for it on the field as well as guys who shift every plate in the gym but don't translate it to the field of play.
 

ratsapprentice

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Messages
12,094
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

England

I guess that depends on how close to his maximum potential strength he is right now...

It's difficult to say, really, because so often in strength sports guys continue to get bigger/progress up the weight divisions as they get older.
Relative strength doesn't work in a linear fashion either, so you can't just compare absolute strength percentages.
For example - Ed Coan's (Arguably Powerlifting's GOAT) deadlift went from 358kg at 82kg BW in 1984, to 408kg at 100kg BW in 1991.
So, the first lift is relatively higher than his second, although I don't think you'll find anyone who would agree that he was stronger relatively in 1984 than in 1991.

So quantifying how much stronger someone like Joe would get is very difficult - suffice to say it would be significant, but he's not going to suddenly become Andrew Sheridan, unless he gains a significant amount of weight or his training up until this point has been sub-standard.

Certainly guys in their 30's don't need to work quite as hard to maintain their levels of strength - their body has adapted to the stimulus it's been put under for the preceding 10-15 years, so they have new state of normality, so to speak...
 
Top