[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: England vs Italy (26/02/2017)

[ratsapprentice]

thats not the point. It's all about showing the players that he has their back.

Additionally, the press talking about him has diverted some of the negative press from the players to him.

Precisely.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's backfired this time though, the person to go at would have been Poite if anyone, calls of CO' S ruining rugby looks petulant and it's highlighted Haskell's and Hartley's flaws during the game. Care came out and criticised O'Shea too which is hilarious after the tactics O'Shea employed gives him the 21 jersey at best for the rest of his career!

Going after a coach with a fraction of the resources you have after a game you won by 20 points and 6 tries does not draw attention away from England but rather towards then, he could easily have let his coaching team take the blame in public and roast his players in private. I think there's method to it half the time but a lot of it is just ego flexing.

Coaches criticising the ref is a huge no-no unless the ref has genuinely had an absolute shocker, which Poite didn't. Refs can impact the game and you don not want to be having a go at them. Another coach though? What can they do? Gob back or try to get their team to beat yours. It has drawn attention away. What are people talking about after the game:

1) The non-ruck tactic
2) England's inability to deal with the non-ruck tactic
3) Eddie Jones being what he is.

There is little to no analysis of the fact that England were struggling because they were simply playing awful, look at the number of mistakes we made that had nothing to do with the Italians tactics. If anything other sides may look at that and think the way to beat England is to try gimmicky things when an objective analysis would reveal that the Italians tactics didn't stop 6 tries being put on them. For comparison last year we put 5 tries past them, the year before it was 6, the year before it was 7. Everyone has walked away thinking their little trick caused England to score far fewer tries than normal when actually it didn't, the inaccurate kicking is what kept the score down. 2 penalties that didn't make touch as well. Also some of those tries England scored had some pretty incredible handling in them but all that will have been ignored. Everyone is looking at England now the same way they were looking at them after the world cup and the result may be the same. If Scotland and Ireland underestimate us and we finally click, it could be pretty convincing. The common consensus is that we're not all that good and have been humiliated.

 

[Maverick1987]

I know he has. I don't care that he's England coach, i'm just giving my opinion of the man. He could be Irish coach and i'd still have the same opinion.

Absolute rubbish . It's easy to say that but I find it incredibly hard to believe you would be lambasting Eddie Jones if he was Irelands coach and you were on a 17 game win streak ....

 

[corny]

I don't know how you can say this backfired.

He's only responsible towards his players and the rfu. Both are happy he won. His players are happy that even though they were boneheaded he has their back. They all know they screwed up, and jones has probably naden it clear he wasn't happy. But to the public, he's taking the blame away from them.

It's obviously working cause everyone throwing a hissy fit about his comments and not going after the players.

There's plenty of discourse about how inept England were. You must be missing it. If anything his comments magnify the attention.

Downplaying it and saying we adapted well and scored (6 or 7?) tries achieves everything you've mentioned above. He was visibly irate after the match, he conceded as much. What you saw and heard was not a scripted, genius response to divert attention. It was a petulant act of a man who couldn't control his tongue.

- - - Updated - - -

Absolute rubbish . It's easy to say that but I find it incredibly hard to believe you would be lambasting Eddie Jones if he was Irelands coach and you were on a 17 game win streak ....

Why can't you separate the man from the coach? Are you that easily emotionally compromised?

He's a great coach who organises his team brilliantly. He'd do a great job as Ireland coach...........but he's a prick and always has been. Very easy.

 

[ncurd]

Coaches criticising the ref is a huge no-no unless the ref has genuinely had an absolute shocker, which Poite didn't. Refs can impact the game and you don not want to be having a go at them.

Look at amount of criticism England got after the 30-3 loss to Wales just by asking WTF was Steve Walsh thinking at scrum time.

Justified or not the rugby fraternity do not like refs being questioned by players or coaches (fans seams more acceptable) it is a complete no go area.

 

[Maverick1987]

There's plenty of discourse about how inept England were. You must be missing it. If anything his comments magnify the attention.

Downplaying it and saying we adapted well and scored (6 or 7?) tries achieves everything you've mentioned above. He was visibly irate after the match, he conceded as much. What you saw and heard was not a scripted, genius response to divert attention. It was a petulant act of a man who couldn't control his tongue.

- - - Updated - - -



Why can't you separate the man from the coach? Are you that easily emotionally compromised?

He's a great coach who organises his team brilliantly. He'd do a great job as Ireland coach...........but he's a prick and always has been. Very easy.

Like I said it's easier to say that when you clearly don't like the guy and he's coach of a country you openly hate than when he's your coach and you are on the biggest run your country has ever been on after saving you from one of the most frustrating and embarrassing thing that could have happened .....

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Like I said it's easier to say that when you clearly don't like the guy and he's coach of a country you openly hate than when he's your coach and you are on the biggest run your country has ever been on after saving you from one of the most frustrating and embarrassing thing that could have happened .....

Openly hate? Where's the evidence of that. Its also easier to say that "when he's your coach and you are on the biggest run your country has ever been on after saving you from one of the most frustrating and embarrassing thing that could have happened" you're not going to accept when he gets something wrong or does something stupid. I think Corny has it spot on here, there is no method to this one, if there was it was at the expense of saying that it was down to the communication between coach and player not being there but that criticises Eddie Jones and his ego can't take it.

Also as for the ref it could easily be criticised that the guy didn't answer a question clarifying the rules to a captain or standing captain, not out of order either... I suppose that highlights that he had the wrong guy for the job at captain though!

 

[Maverick1987]

Openly hate? Where's the evidence of that. Its also easier to say that "when he's your coach and you are on the biggest run your country has ever been on after saving you from one of the most frustrating and embarrassing thing that could have happened" you're not going to accept when he gets something wrong or does something stupid. I think Corny has it spot on here, there is no method to this one, if there was it was at the expense of saying that it was down to the communication between coach and player not being there but that criticises Eddie Jones and his ego can't take it.

Also as for the ref it could easily be criticised that the guy didn't answer a question clarifying the rules to a captain or standing captain, not out of order either... I suppose that highlights that he had the wrong guy for the job at captain though!

If I need to explain to you why I feel that SOME Welsh, Irish and Scottish people are overly critical of England players and coaches then I'm probably wasting my time in the first place .....

And just to clarify I don't mean this game or thread in particular

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If I need to explain to you why I feel that SOME Welsh, Irish and Scottish people are overly critical of England players and coaches then I'm probably wasting my time in the first place .....

And just to clarify I don't mean this game in particular

Not what you'd implied in your last post! Accusations of that get thrown around this place way too much though, it obviously happens but its a loud minority and its not as if Ireland and Wales don't get hate when successful. Right now England have the most hateful coach in rugby, a captain who is one of the dirtiest players in the history of the sport, and unlikable players at 1, 7, 9, 12 and 15 as well. (I only dislike Brown of that lot) Add being successful to this and you're going to attract hate, Ireland in 2014 and 2015 attracted so much hate due to just being boring, Warrenball got it for the Welsh, the red rose isn't what attracts it to England apart from a couple heads from the Valley's as far as I can tell!

I don't like Jones, I respect what he's done and I like the way his team plays and a lot of their players but I'd rather listen to him talk ****e with a losing team than a winning one such is my disliking for the man. (It was the same when he was with Japan in the RWC but the underdog and fairytale factors of Japan winning had me on their side)

 

[Maverick1987]

Not what you'd implied in your last post! Accusations of that get thrown around this place way too much though, it obviously happens but its a loud minority and its not as if Ireland and Wales don't get hate when successful. Right now England have the most hateful coach in rugby, a captain who is one of the dirtiest players in the history of the sport, and unlikable players at 1, 7, 9, 12 and 15 as well. (I only dislike Brown of that lot) Add being successful to this and you're going to attract hate, Ireland in 2014 and 2015 attracted so much hate due to just being boring, Warrenball got it for the Welsh, the red rose isn't what attracts it to England apart from a couple heads from the Valley's as far as I can tell!

I don't like Jones, I respect what he's done and I like the way his team plays and a lot of their players but I'd rather listen to him talk ****e with a losing team than a winning one such is my disliking for the man. (It was the same when he was with Japan in the RWC but the underdog and fairytale factors of Japan winning had me on their side)

Meh . We will have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid . Before this 6 nations even started SOME people were saying "Owen Farrell should be sat on his sofa during the lions" "Itoje is overrated" "England were lucky" you say about Hartleys discipline which is atrocious but all the Irish seem to forget about Cian Healy who has had a couple of run ins with the citing commissioner himself for being a **** and a thug, but no one ever mentions it ...... I don't even need to get started on social media but those that I've mentioned were just a few cases on this very forum . There's literally 10 pages on this thread just talking about how Eddie Jones is such a **** despite the fact his interview today started with "ITALY WERE SMART AND CONGRATULATIONS TO THEIR COACHING STAFF AND PLAYERS THEY EXECUTED THAT PLAN BRILLIANTLY BUT IT WASN'T RUGBY"

It was brilliant and a lot of congratulations should go to Italy but I agree with Eddie it wasn't rugby . However it was compounded by Englands inability to think on their feet. Even Paul O'Connell said "Italy have used the laws to their advantage but I wouldn't agree with it, I think there needs to be an offside line. When there's guys standing in the middle of the park waving their arms around like that then I think it's silly, but you have to congratulate Italy and say fair play"

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not what you'd implied in your last post! Accusations of that get thrown around this place way too much though, it obviously happens but its a loud minority and its not as if Ireland and Wales don't get hate when successful. Right now England have the most hateful coach in rugby, a captain who is one of the dirtiest players in the history of the sport, and unlikable players at 1, 7, 9, 12 and 15 as well. (I only dislike Brown of that lot) Add being successful to this and you're going to attract hate, Ireland in 2014 and 2015 attracted so much hate due to just being boring, Warrenball got it for the Welsh, the red rose isn't what attracts it to England apart from a couple heads from the Valley's as far as I can tell!

I don't like Jones, I respect what he's done and I like the way his team plays and a lot of their players but I'd rather listen to him talk ****e with a losing team than a winning one such is my disliking for the man. (It was the same when he was with Japan in the RWC but the underdog and fairytale factors of Japan winning had me on their side)

That's all well and good but England got the same treatment when we weren't winning, only back then those making the comments actually felt justified in making them whilst now it's more the case of desperately clinging to any scrap of English frailty. I mean no word of a lie there are plenty of people, mostly of the Celtic type, who even now dismiss England's wins as luck and undeserved (the whole streak, not just this 6N). The number of times I've heard our opposition are poor, our achievements mean nothing because we haven't beaten the All Blacks, we are a team of mercenaries, we are the largest union so even when successful we are simply performing at the level we should anyway and anything else is failure. If it's a minority, it's a very large and very vocal minority. In 2016 and 2015 the most popular replies on any post involving England on the 6N facebook page were negative ones attacking England. When it did the match up of the games with suggestions of who would win, EVERY week it was topped by "anyone but England" or whoever England were playing in 2015. The other nations didn't get this and the number of likes would exceed normal comments elsewhere. Obviously that can't be used as the sole basis but it's also too prevalent to dismiss.

 

[Maverick1987]

That's all well and good but England got the same treatment when we weren't winning, only back then those making the comments actually felt justified in making them whilst now it's more the case of desperately clinging to any scrap of English frailty. I mean no word of a lie there are plenty of people, mostly of the Celtic type, who even now dismiss England's wins as luck and undeserved (the whole streak, not just this 6N). The number of times I've heard our opposition are poor, our achievements mean nothing because we haven't beaten the All Blacks, we are a team of mercenaries, we are the largest union so even when successful we are simply performing at the level we should anyway and anything else is failure. If it's a minority, it's a very large and very vocal minority. In 2016 and 2015 the most popular replies on any post involving England on the 6N facebook page were negative ones attacking England. When it did the match up of the games with suggestions of who would win, EVERY week it was topped by "anyone but England" or whoever England were playing in 2015. The other nations didn't get this and the number of likes would exceed normal comments elsewhere. Obviously that can't be used as the sole basis but it's also too prevalent to dismiss.

Yeh that's exactly what I'm talking about ..... you said it way better than me though ! Haha

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Meh . We will have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid . Before this 6 nations even started SOME people were saying "Owen Farrell should be sat on his sofa during the lions" "Itoje is overrated" "England were lucky" you say about Hartleys discipline which is atrocious but all the Irish seem to forget about Cian Healy who has had a couple of run ins with the citing commissioner himself for being a **** and a thug, but no one ever mentions it ...... I don't even need to get started on social media but those that I've mentioned were just a few cases on this very forum . There's literally 10 pages on this thread just talking about how Eddie Jones is such a **** despite the fact his interview today started with "ITALY WERE SMART AND CONGRATULATIONS TO THEIR COACHING STAFF AND PLAYERS THEY EXECUTED THAT PLAN BRILLIANTLY BUT IT WASN'T RUGBY"

It was brilliant and a lot of congratulations should go to Italy but I agree with Eddie it wasn't rugby . However it was compounded by Englands inability to think on their feet. Even Paul O'Connell said "Italy have used the laws to their advantage but I wouldn't agree with it, I think there needs to be an offside line. When there's guys standing in the middle of the park waving their arms around like that then I think it's silly, but you have to congratulate Italy and say fair play"

No one mentions Cian Healy being a thug? What planet are you on lad? The two aren't closely comparable though. If you don't think players from other countries don't attract unwarranted hate you're deluded, you've just called a guy who has spent something like 4 weeks of his career suspended a four letter expletive and a thug for example, Sexton, Murray, Hogg, J Davies, Williams among many more get it yards too! There's a serious echo chamber among English fans on this forum which causes caused this imo.

Saying it wasn't rugby is plainly wrong, it's been used before and will be again, saying Conor O'Shea ruined rugby is a dickish thing to say of a fellow professional with a fraction of your resources, who is fighting claims his team should not be in the competition for getting the better of you for 40 mins.

Saying this isn't rugby is so ridiculous actually, How can there be offside without a Ruck? A ruck is a contest for the ball after the tackle, if neither the tackler nor another player contests how can there be a ruck? If a ruck were to start with the attacking team entering the ruck it's just a step closer to league where the team with the ball dictates everything in the game.

 

[corny]

Like I said it's easier to say that when you clearly don't like the guy and he's coach of a country you openly hate than when he's your coach and you are on the biggest run your country has ever been on after saving you from one of the most frustrating and embarrassing thing that could have happened .....

Why do you keep telling me what 'some' people are saying? You're responding to me. Have i given you cause to suspect i hate the man in charge because he manages England? I can't argue with your generalisations.

Anyway, get a grip. Jones is unlikeable and the only person that reflects badly on is Jones himself. It has **** all to do with you, England, the Queen are any other nonsense you'd happily throw my way.

 

[Maverick1987]

No one mentions Cian Healy being a thug? What planet are you on lad? The two aren't closely comparable though. If you don't think players from other countries don't attract unwarranted hate you're deluded, you've just called a guy who has spent something like 4 weeks of his career suspended a four letter expletive and a thug for example, Sexton, Murray, Hogg, J Davies, Williams among many more get it yards too! There's a serious echo chamber among English fans on this forum which causes caused this imo.

Saying it wasn't rugby is plainly wrong, it's been used before and will be again, saying Conor O'Shea ruined rugby is a dickish thing to say of a fellow professional with a fraction of your resources, who is fighting claims his team should not be in the competition for getting the better of you for 40 mins.

Saying this isn't rugby is so ridiculous actually, How can there be offside without a Ruck? A ruck is a contest for the ball after the tackle, if neither the tackler nor another player contests how can there be a ruck? If a ruck were to start with the attacking team entering the ruck it's just a step closer to league where the team with the ball dictates everything in the game.

Healy purposely stamped on Dan Coles ankle, when Mike Brown did that to Connor Murray (still debatable if it was deliberate) but he did do it, he was absolutely torn to shreds on this forum and that is the very difference I'm talking about ....

I'm not gonna get into the it's not rugby thing . The tactics Italy used split rugby, I'm on the one side you are on the other . It's not gonna change let's just see what world rugby do about it .....

I've also not seen Sexton get any aggro on here really other than maybe being a bit fragile . Hogg gets stuck for diving which imo is understandable, Murray/Webb/Biggar get a bit of stick for being whingey ***** . I don't get involved in that but I can understand it . Especially with Biggar he should play football if he wants to surround the referee complaining . Dylan Hartley gets bad rep because he's been a huge prat in the past I can understand that too his behaviour at times has been nothing short of horrendous ....

Let me use one example for you when Lawes does what Moriarty did to Farrell a fortnight ago he gets called a scumbag, a cheap shot merchant, useless ****, that's all he's got ... but when Moriarty did it a lot of Celts just laughed about it .... one rule for England one rule for everybody else

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's all well and good but England got the same treatment when we weren't winning, only back then those making the comments actually felt justified in making them whilst now it's more the case of desperately clinging to any scrap of English frailty. I mean no word of a lie there are plenty of people, mostly of the Celtic type, who even now dismiss England's wins as luck and undeserved (the whole streak, not just this 6N). The number of times I've heard our opposition are poor, our achievements mean nothing because we haven't beaten the All Blacks, we are a team of mercenaries, we are the largest union so even when successful we are simply performing at the level we should anyway and anything else is failure. If it's a minority, it's a very large and very vocal minority. In 2016 and 2015 the most popular replies on any post involving England on the 6N facebook page were negative ones attacking England. When it did the match up of the games with suggestions of who would win, EVERY week it was topped by "anyone but England" or whoever England were playing in 2015. The other nations didn't get this and the number of likes would exceed normal comments elsewhere. Obviously that can't be used as the sole basis but it's also too prevalent to dismiss.

Facebook is built for trolls. If we're going by here, reddit, articles of not scum newspapers etc... you don't really get it. I won't deny your the least liked nation in rugby right now and are always in and around the top but I definitely think the Aussies and Saffas have been previously, possibly the Welsh too. And among actual fans with basic intelligence and chipless shoulders its a fallacy and not worthy of telling good posters that they openly hate you because of their nationality like we had earlier!

 

[Groundhog]

****ing hell grab the tampax and the kleenex boys. Lets have a night where we sit in watch chick flicks, eat ice cream and chat about the boys we like (Eddie Jones obviously).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Healy purposely stamped on Dan Coles ankle, when Mike Brown did that to Connor Murray (still debatable if it was deliberate) but he did do it, he was absolutely torn to shreds on this forum and that is the very difference I'm talking about ....

I'm not gonna get into the it's not rugby thing . The tactics Italy used split rugby, I'm on the one side you are on the other . It's not gonna change let's just see what world rugby do about it .....

Healy was punished, Brown wasn't and there was a debate, Brown was called reckless at worst... If that's what you're talking about it highlights the desire, for lack of a better word, to be hated that I'm talking about.

Fair.

- - - Updated - - -

****ing hell grab the tampax and the kleenex boys. Lets have a night where we sit in watch chick flicks, eat ice cream and chat about the boys we like (Eddie Jones obviously).

**** mate you're tough! I bet you only use Kleenex for kids and not tears.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Facebook is built for trolls. If we're going by here, reddit, articles of not scum newspapers etc... you don't really get it. I won't deny your the least liked nation in rugby right now and are always in and around the top but I definitely think the Aussies and Saffas have been previously, possibly the Welsh too. And among actual fans with basic intelligence and chipless shoulders its a fallacy and not worthy of telling good posters that they openly hate you because of their nationality like we had earlier!

I'm aware of that but you can say that disproportionately WAY more people from Celt nations go out of their way to be arses. Considering the rugby watching population of England is probably more than Wales, Scotland and Ireland combined you'd expect far more English trolling yet the balance is very much **** being flung the other way and in greater quantities. It's not so much a case of saying all do it, just that on balance of who is flinging the most ****, it is overwhelmingly being flung at England than by England and a noticeable chunk of it is genuinely vile. Go back 6 years and you wouldn't have found an "anyone but Wales" mentality in England but during 2013-14 Welsh fans were so frequently being so **** to English fans that now an anyone but Wales mentality has been created. This all predates our success, it just showed that even when another side is being successful, we still get lots of **** thrown at us.

On the flip side, an anyone but Ireland mentality has not been created with many English supporting Ireland as their 2nd team (well most choose Italy but they don't have a chance). If anything Irish fans were better when they were successful and it's only since England have taken over as the form NH side that it's got a bit more heated.

 

[Groundhog]

I'm aware of that but you can say that disproportionately WAY more people from Celt nations go out of their way to be arses. Considering the rugby watching population of England is probably more than Wales, Scotland and Ireland combined you'd expect far more English trolling yet the balance is very much **** being flung the other way and in greater quantities. It's not so much a case of saying all do it, just that on balance of who is flinging the most ****, it is overwhelmingly being flung at England than by England and a noticeable chunk of it is genuinely vile.

Gonna highlight all of this that I think is bull****.