England v South Africa - 26/11/2022 - KO 4.30 GMT

[Crash Hamster]

Jones has been living entirely off his inherited Lancaster side playing bloody well and a world cup semi final, that's it.

Yes, the question has to be "Which is the outlier, the WC SF v NZ or every other damn game since?"

I'm getting tired of the Emperor's new clothes-style denial that there's anything wrong.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

This whole Lancaster side thing annoys me, it wasn't Lancaster squad by the time it got to the RWC 2019.

Eddie benefited from really being the first coach to get that first wave of really talented young players from the increased funded academy system, more than inheriting Lancaster squad.

Saying Eddie inherited Lancaster's squad will be like saying who ever is next if they are successful it was because they inherited Eddie's where does it stop?

Eddie is clearly a very smart coach
Problem is he has the mind of a very very very stubborn troll.

 

[87Dreamer]

Well played South Africa comprehensively out played in every facet of the game tonight. Had tickets for the game but didn't go, glad I saved the money.

I've just about had it with EJ England. Don't mind getting beat by a better side, this team are devoid of ideas and an identity, unless it's 'we're really **** at rugby'.

Your not bad when it's 15 vs 14, just gotta hope for those cards earlier in the game

 

[TRF_Olyy]

This whole Lancaster side thing annoys me, it wasn't Lancaster squad by the time it got to the RWC 2019.

Eddie benefited from really being the first coach to get that first wave of really talented young players from the increased funded academy system, more than inheriting Lancaster squad.

Saying Eddie inherited Lancaster's squad will be like saying who ever is next if they are successful it was because they inherited Eddie's where does it stop?

Eddie is clearly a very smart coach
Problem is he has the mind of a very very very stubborn troll.

Yeah, there's really not that much crossover,
guys like Slade and Nowell only got a game vs Uruguay after we'd already been knocked out

Vunipolas, Lawes, Youngs, Farrell, Tuilagi, Slade, Nowell - think that's it? and a couple of them were around in 2011

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

This whole Lancaster side thing annoys me, it wasn't Lancaster squad by the time it got to the RWC 2019.

Eddie benefited from really being the first coach to get that first wave of really talented young players from the increased funded academy system, more than inheriting Lancaster squad.

Saying Eddie inherited Lancaster's squad will be like saying who ever is next if they are successful it was because they inherited Eddie's where does it stop?

Eddie is clearly a very smart coach
Problem is he has the mind of a very very very stubborn troll.

The squad he had in his first 2 years where he had that longest run of unbeaten games was definitely Lancasters squad. Literally from day 1 they were winning and kept winning. He made very few changes to the squad he inherited as far as I can recall.

The squad at the WC wasn't.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So the Boks didn't even have a completely full side due to the international window. They didn't bother with a front line goal kicker and even gifted us a red card. And we still got beaten up and barely fired a shot.

I think we now have a losing record for the year for the first time since something like 2008.

Jones looks shot and has almost certainly lost the dressing room - any team can sense when their leaders have run out of steam, authority and ideas.

 

[McTallshort]

I think we now have a losing record for the year for the first time since something like 2008.

Ah! The good old days of Corry, Borthwick and Brian Ashton

 

[Crash Hamster]

Eddie is clearly a very smart coach

I'm not sure about this; he's either getting less than he could from the players he's selecting or getting the most from the players he's selecting but not selecting the right ones.

England have a right to expect to be better than they are at the moment.

I also note he said again that the fact that we were dreadful (again) was entirely his fault (again.)

 

[Geordie]

Are we missing Sam Underhill?

Ollie Chessum to replace Itoje soon.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The squad he had in his first 2 years where he had that longest run of unbeaten games was definitely Lancasters squad. Literally from day 1 they were winning and kept winning. He made very few changes to the squad he inherited as far as I can recall.

The squad at the WC wasn't.

By 2017 it was a pretty changed squad would say half of it was different generally.
Ironically the type of change he needed to have done for this squad

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Are we missing Sam Underhill?

Yes, and I've been a bit flamed a couple of times for saying how important he is. But we need his kind of natural physicality….across the pack.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

By 2017 it was a pretty changed squad would say half of it was different generally.
Ironically the type of change he needed to have done for this squad

By 2017 is when the results started going downhill, with 2018 being 5th in the 6 nations. We then had a decent world cup, scraped along for the year after and then dropped off a cliff worse than the one in 2018. I stand by my point, he has been riding off a squad he inherited that went downhill once he put his mark on it and a single game in the world cup. Can anyone point to a period outside these 2 instances where England have seriously looked dominant?

Eg here were 2 charts I had kept updated for the 6 nations, points scored and tries scored. The fainter line is a 4 year rolling average. Slightly simplistic but the basic idea is that the 4 year rolling average in the final year will reflect how they performed overall during their world cup cycle. If it goes up, the coach has been making a positive contribution, downwards a negative one. Notice with Jones when the trend line gets to 2017 each time, it goes down and keeps going down. Ie once it reaches the point where his time in charge makes up the majority of the average, it drops down and even the spike in 2019 isn't enough to change that. Jones is driving the team into the ground, this is not a one off but a trend.

 

[Geordie]

Yes, and I've been a bit flamed a couple of times for saying how important he is. But we need his kind of natural physicality….across the pack.

I'm a broken down record but I want to see Ted Hill in the squad now aswell.

And why has Jack Wilis had barely any minutes

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Genuine question chaps- I love Maro Itoje but does anyone feel like the lad needs a rest or his minutes managed?

The guy who burst onto the scene looks a bit flat to me at the moment. When you look at the Lions Tours, World Cup, and Summer tours, I don't recall a time where he has rested?

Hasn't been at his best for England for a season now IMO

Probably true.

But I'd also take Etzebeth over him any day. Just a huge relentless, aggressive brute who must be a total mare to play against. The heartbeat of that team.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

And why has Jack Wilis had barely any minutes

Doesn't offer the physical, or carrying, threat that EJ wants in his forwards - I don't agree with it, but it's pretty obvious when you look at the players he's favoured in the backrow

Not condoning that, I would've given him a chance, but that'll be the reasoning

 

[Geordie]

Doesn't offer the physical, or carrying, threat that EJ wants in his forwards - I don't agree with it, but it's pretty obvious when you look at the players he's favoured in the backrow

Not condoning that, I would've given him a chance, but that'll be the reasoning

See that's what I just don't get either. Jack is a big time carrier, he makes the hard yards aswell as in the open and he's a try scorer and obviously his breakdown threat.

Yet what's he had...10 mins over the whole series?

 

[Geordie]

Probably true.

But I'd also take Etzebeth over him any day. Just a huge relentless, aggressive brute who must be a total mare to play against. The heartbeat of that team.

Ollie Chessum could take over Maro if he's not careful...high energy aggressive in your face lock but he's getting bigger and bigger.

 

[Which Tyler]

I think we now have a losing record for the year for the first time since something like 2008.

Along with 2010, 2018 and 2021

Worth noting that Eddie's win rate with England has been dragged down to 70.9%, making him (currently) the 3rd most winningest coach England have had since 1969
"Since 2019 RWC" he's around 58%

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

By 2017 is when the results started going downhill, with 2018 being 5th in the 6 nations. We then had a decent world cup, scraped along for the year after and then dropped off a cliff worse than the one in 2018. I stand by my point, he has been riding off a squad he inherited that went downhill once he put his mark on it and a single game in the world cup. Can anyone point to a period outside these 2 instances where England have seriously looked dominant?

Eg here were 2 charts I had kept updated for the 6 nations, points scored and tries scored. The fainter line is a 4 year rolling average. Slightly simplistic but the basic idea is that the 4 year rolling average in the final year will reflect how they performed overall during their world cup cycle. If it goes up, the coach has been making a positive contribution, downwards a negative one. Notice with Jones when the trend line gets to 2017 each time, it goes down and keeps going down. Ie once it reaches the point where his time in charge makes up the majority of the average, it drops down and even the spike in 2019 isn't enough to change that. Jones is driving the team into the ground, this is not a one off but a trend.
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2017 we lost one game the whole year.
2018 we won in SA for the first time in 20 years
2019 got to a rugby World Cup final

I think he got the RWC timing genuinely correct for the 2019 run, and imo unlike this run times it really nicely

we put 40 points on aus in the quarter final right? Or am I imagining it?
Where is this whole single game thing in the RWC come from?
We won most our games pretty handily till we got to that Final where we lost to a much physical team and imo one of the best ever springbok teams.

 

[die_mole]

2017 we lost one game the whole year.
2018 we won in SA for the first time in 20 years
2019 got to a rugby World Cup final

I think he got the RWC timing genuinely correct for the 2019 run, and imo unlike this run times it really nicely

we put 40 points on aus in the quarter final right? Or am I imagining it?
Where is this whole single game thing in the RWC come from?
We won most our games pretty handily till we got to that Final where we lost to a much physical team and imo one of the best ever springbok teams.

England was good before the World Cup. They were amazing during the World Cup up until the final. There was a definite jump in performance and even if a similar jump happened this time it only would give them a slim shot against france.