England v South Africa

[Wally]

it could be fair to say SA was a game too far for a tired england team.

It's the start of their international season...

 

[shtove]

This was a complete different test to Englands previous games and they Weren't up to the challenge. England need to learn how to play without possession and live off scraps, taking their opportunity when it arrives. England were second best in the set piece and they couldn't set up a good platform. South Africa were more physical than England and their tactics worked well as they kept the ball with the forwards and didn't allow England to get a good flowing game started. Positives for England were that Lawes is playing well and plays like he has over 30 caps. Cueto is carrying on his momentum and Foden had a good game. England need to learn how to adjust their game when they are unable to play the wide flowing game that they like. Today England's tactical kicking was poor and they looked disorganised when key players left the field. Simply England were not powerful or smart enough today.

Hard to know where England go from here. They got raped in the lineout, fairly poor in the scrum. Without those advantages they were mostly clueless in attack, although I think they did miss a couple of chances to score tries. They have no solution in the centre, and their half backs are ordinary (except when Youngs is being arrogant - he left the pitch today shaking his head).

Very impressed with the Saffers - the first ten minutes was a ***anic arm wrestle, and their pack finally slammed England to the table. They're still pretty dull to watch, but they have massive conviction. Overall there wasn't an outstanding player, but good to see Frans Steyn add a bit of excitement.

Matfield's missed try was like when you reach into your pocket for your wallet, find it's not there, pat the rest of your pockets, then realise it was in the first pocket all the time - too late!

ps. Lawes was very impressive in defence - covered the field better than the backrow - but he should have greater impact carrying the ball.

 

[RoosTah]

To me this game shows that England's mentality is all wrong... they played an aggressive expansive game against Australia that was based around winning the collision area and it worked brilliantly. But watching them against SA and NZ it just seems as though when they come across teams who have the bulk and physicality up front, they don't really have any plan B. They always look to exploit our forward weaknesses, which is obvious, but against the physically more imposing Boks and ABs they don't seem to know quite what to do... it's as if the whole running the ball thing just doesn't occur to them even in spite of how well it worked against us.

 

[SavageLez]

We beat Ireland because of a missed conversion, we beat Wales where we were very, very, very lucky with the referee's decisions and we lost to Scotland. Today was the first good match this tour. Being a good player doesn't make you a good captain. My opinion is that his decision making is awful. When you are trashing the English defence going through the phases that easily, you kick for the corner, not for goal! You know you can win the line-out and you have to score the try. Kicking for goal in a situation like that is a sign of weakness.

SA beat Ireland, Wales and England. You conveniantly mention that we lost to Scotalnd but do not mention unplayable weather and dubious decisions from the ref. Go have a look at Smit's recent performances with less injuries and better players at his disposal. Victor has done bloody well in the circumstances. Had Smit captained and with his latest records we probably would have lost the tight ones. Victor always believes he can win no matter what situation the team is in and that comes from experience in tight games. It tells you something when someone of Smits stature asks for help from Victor in match situations.

With regards to the kicking for touch option. Victor generally likes to show dominance and does generally kick for touch i.s.o goals because of their linout dominance. The only time this did not work out for him was in the semi finals against the Sharks. Bulls were all over the Sharks for a long period of time and they kept kicking for the corner instead of for poles. Bulls did not score due to brilliant defence from the Sharks and suddenly he made the wrong decisions?! Had he scored he would have been a hero! There is a thin line when these options are available and generally he gets it right as proven in all his successes and recent tour victories!

It is actually not even worth debating. We are blessed with 2 brilliant natural leaders in Smit and Matfield!
Bye the bye, I am not a Bull supporter so this is not a bias opinion. Go Stormers!

 

[coonor]

To me this game shows that England's mentality is all wrong... they played an aggressive expansive game against Australia that was based around winning the collision area and it worked brilliantly. But watching them against SA and NZ it just seems as though when they come across teams who have the bulk and physicality up front, they don't really have any plan B. They always look to exploit our forward weaknesses, which is obvious, but against the physically more imposing Boks and ABs they don't seem to know quite what to do... it's as if the whole running the ball thing just doesn't occur to them even in spite of how well it worked against us.

I agree. Without a dominant pack England seem to have no platform to stage their attack. England have found their style but they must remember that against some teams you have to play a different style. England need to play the team infront of them. South Africa have shown that they have the best tight five in the world and their set piece is a class above every other team. My only worry for SA is their backs are very boring in attack and they don't seem as connected as the forwards do.

 

[SavageLez]

Can't agree with you more. The backline is boring and pathetic. I do think that will change with the return of Fourie Du Preez, Jaque Fourie, Bryan Habana and JP Pieterson from injury. Then players like Frans Steyn can go back to the full-back. I think that it is a blessing that all these players have been injured as they should be well rested come RWC 2011 and the reserves have all been given game time which can only add to the depth of the SA squad.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

It's the start of their international season...

Tired of what? Their season just started...

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

SA beat Ireland, Wales and England. You conveniantly mention that we lost to Scotalnd but do not mention unplayable weather and dubious decisions from the ref. Go have a look at Smit's recent performances with less injuries and better players at his disposal. Victor has done bloody well in the circumstances. Had Smit captained and with his latest records we probably would have lost the tight ones. Victor always believes he can win no matter what situation the team is in and that comes from experience in tight games. It tells you something when someone of Smits stature asks for help from Victor in match situations.

With regards to the kicking for touch option. Victor generally likes to show dominance and does generally kick for touch i.s.o goals because of their linout dominance. The only time this did not work out for him was in the semi finals against the Sharks. Bulls were all over the Sharks for a long period of time and they kept kicking for the corner instead of for poles. Bulls did not score due to brilliant defence from the Sharks and suddenly he made the wrong decisions?! Had he scored he would have been a hero! There is a thin line when these options are available and generally he gets it right as proven in all his successes and recent tour victories!

It is actually not even worth debating. We are blessed with 2 brilliant natural leaders in Smit and Matfield!
Bye the bye, I am not a Bull supporter so this is not a bias opinion. Go Stormers!

Here you go again with Smit. I am not discussing Smit! John Smit has had a great career, that's it. In the match against Scotland we had bad weather, yes. Is that an excuse? No! Scotland played in the same weather. Crying about weather, the pitch, the cold or the wind is never a valid argument since both teams experience the same.

What did you think of the kicking for goal yesterday? Was it a good decision to go for goal when you are so dominant against the English?

 

[SavageLez]

Here you go again with Smit. I am not discussing Smit! John Smit has had a great career, that's it. In the match against Scotland we had bad weather, yes. Is that an excuse? No! Scotland played in the same weather. Crying about weather, the pitch, the cold or the wind is never a valid argument since both teams experience the same.

What did you think of the kicking for goal yesterday? Was it a good decision to go for goal when you are so dominant against the English?

1. I am not discussing Smit am using him to illustrate how good a captain Victor is coz everyone thinks Smit is good. I am trying to show you that Victor as captain has had more success than the "great" John Smit.

2. The Scotland game was lost. What did Scotland do better than SA fu....all. They both played in sh.. rugby in appaling weather. We did however manage to score a try which they did not. The ref fuc.. up and that was the only difference in the end. Close game but both teams played terrible rugby due to weather. I am stating fact not making excuses. In games like that where scoring tries is really difficult, penalties are very important and 3 points is a lot. SA were blown in front of their post un a number of occasions incorrectly.

3. Goal Kicking - Great decisions were made. Imagine Victor did not go for goal, went for touch and we did not score. England gets the ntercept like they did and suddenly the game is on the wire. Victor got it right and SA won.

 

[Teh Mite]

To me this game shows that England's mentality is all wrong... they played an aggressive expansive game against Australia that was based around winning the collision area and it worked brilliantly. But watching them against SA and NZ it just seems as though when they come across teams who have the bulk and physicality up front, they don't really have any plan B. They always look to exploit our forward weaknesses, which is obvious, but against the physically more imposing Boks and ABs they don't seem to know quite what to do... it's as if the whole running the ball thing just doesn't occur to them even in spite of how well it worked against us.

Was saying something similar myself after the final whistle. Pretty much as stated above with the addition of their training which must only consist of front foot rugby - when it's going their way, they're operagting as a unit and looking very dangerous. When it's time to scramble however, there is no "as one" mentality and every player resorts to their clubs base code - fine except that every club has different mentalities.

Sheridan - Cant prop, only suitable for bullying weaker packs (like Aus). Needs replacing
Hartley - Best of a below par bunch
Cole - Not his finest game, but he can't always be perfect
Lawes - Best Englishman on the pitch. Bubbling along nicely, will be like Matfield in a few years time
Palmer - Showed the weaknesses in his game more then his strengths - Life's not easy though against Matfield and Botha in the LO
Croft - A real fright start, it was clear how much value he is once he went off. England became a different team.
Moody - Meh, a nothing match.
Easter - Barely noticed him
Youngs - Poor by the high standards he's set himself. Will bounce back.
Flood - Picked up the early knock and never looked like setting the world alight.
Cueto - One run aside, didn't do much except bleed.
Hape - F off and Die
Tindall - Is well passed it. Too many mistakes, offside too much, too many crap drop goals.
Ashton - Had his Mungoball head on for the Matfield tackle - Little guys should hit the big guys legs, not the body. He'll learn that and won't be a northern idiot about it again. Otherwise, a reasonable game, although spent too much time tracking the static england ball instead of being on his wing.
Foden - Good running and super-solid under the high ball. Dumb decision making nearly cost a try in the opening minutes though. 1000000000000x better then Delon Petulant Armitage performed on Friday night in equally outclassed sides.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

1. I am not discussing Smit am using him to illustrate how good a captain Victor is coz everyone thinks Smit is good. I am trying to show you that Victor as captain has had more success than the "great" John Smit.

2. The Scotland game was lost. What did Scotland do better than SA fu....all. They both played in sh.. rugby in appaling weather. We did however manage to score a try which they did not. The ref fuc.. up and that was the only difference in the end. Close game but both teams played terrible rugby due to weather. I am stating fact not making excuses. In games like that where scoring tries is really difficult, penalties are very important and 3 points is a lot. SA were blown in front of their post un a number of occasions incorrectly.

3. Goal Kicking - Great decisions were made. Imagine Victor did not go for goal, went for touch and we did not score. England gets the ntercept like they did and suddenly the game is on the wire. Victor got it right and SA won.

You are talking about the penalty that Morne Steyn ended up missing? Yeah, good call. You know that from that side a left-footed kicker would do good but Steyn, who is not that good on form as he was earlier this year, is a right-footed kicker. In a situation like that with the strong line-out options, you have to kick for touch with a penalty.

Anyway, Scotland beat us because of the silly mistakes made by Stegmann and Kirchner. They caused the 6 penalties Scotland scored to beat us. 6 penalties is too much. The match we lost against Scotland had nothing to do with the weather.

Matfield is not a bad captain but he is not as brilliant as you make him out to be

 

[Amobokoboko]

Saw only the first half not really convincing. Sa won, don't know what to think about it. PdV will stay a bit longer as a head coach. So he will most likely stay until after the RWC.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

The second half was better than the first half. I am curious to see what will happen once du Preez is back. The problem is that we won't see it until the World Cup. As far as I know there won't be a spring tour next year.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

A week ago everyone was jumping on the England bandwagon, I don't think we should start berating them, after all, they're a young team in which two senior players got carried off early.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

That is actually a valid argument. How much did the injuries cost England the match?

 

[veux]

I suppose the question is, how would south africa have played if Juan and Morne Steyn went off with injuries before half time, and Francois Steyn took an early knock and wasn't himself all match.

Still, England need to be able to play without a few standout players - really they need a better bench.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Well, the depth is not present in England if they cannot replace to injured players with fairly equal subs. I am just happy we managed to win 3 out of 4 matches with the list of injuries at the moment

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That is actually a valid argument. How much did the injuries cost England the match?

Croft was a big loss, but Fourie had his best game yet. If only Moody had gone off instead....
Flood was having a mare, aimless kicking, looked flustered with players running at him, think Hodgson did better: Had better distribution and better kicking from hand. Don't think his subbing cost England



The thing I don't get with Johnson is that Wilson is on the bench as a straight replacement for Dan Cole, it seems. Can't Wilson play 1 and 3? I'd love to have seen him replace Sheridan at some point, think a front row with both Wilson and Cole would be quality

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

I don't know the NH players that well but I have to say Fourie and that big lock (nr. 4) played a massive game. where does that lock come from?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Courtney Lawes - Northampton Saints