[EOYT] England vs New Zealand 16/11/13

[austingtir]

If the ABs coaching team do not spot the weakness and still in dreamland..Then I cannot for foresee ABs retaining the world cup. So many weakness easily spotted. The most obvious, the front row. Woodcock and Owen were struggling. I recalled seeing one incident when both of them together and cannot even stop the England No 8.

I thought we did o.k.... iv probably been the one saying previously that i didnt think they were up to it and Woodcock might be past it. They did enough in this game.... just.

I still dont understand that wheeled scrum try.... its got me baffled. That scrum went 180degrees and disintigrated. I assume the only reason it was allowed to continue as Joubert had found a penalty as I saw his arm up in Englands direction just before the try. Im pretty sure the AB's wheeled that scrum on purpose. England didnt have much to gain imo from doing it other than the lucky bounce of the ball and debatable try decision at the end of it. If thats how he's going to ref a scrum on the 5m line i hope the AB's were taking notes for when they are in Englands position next time.

In the end i thought it was kind of justice that they scored as they pretty much scored just before that only to be disallowed because the refs couldnt see jack which is fair enough.

 

[nickdnz]

So much moaning going on about the ref... does it really matter the All Blacks got the win in the end, stop trying to undermine a great match by saying the ref was on Englands side. The man gave you the world cup!!!

I love how if we lost the match and blamed the referee - we'd be called sore losers. We won the match and many people genuinely thought the referee was shocking, and we're still somehow bitter?

The referee was inconsistant. I'm not making claims he was bias etc, I'm just saying England got away with a hell of a lot this match. Obstructions, players diving off their feet every breakdown, off-sides. I'm a Craig Joubert fan - but in my opinion he had a shocker. It wasn't a great match in my opinion because of the refereeing errors, where you probably feel it was because they allowed England to be so competitive.

Anyway, my thoughts on the match besides the refereeing.

1. Tony Woodcock - Did a reasonable job before coming off at half time. Scrum struggled early but overall did okay. 6.5/10
2. Keven Mealamu- One of his better games, seems to be coming into good form. Lineout throws were all good and his work on the ground was one of the best for the ABs. 7.5/10
3. Owen Franks - For some reason I'm becoming more and more concerned with his scrummaging, seems he hasn't entirely recovered as Marler isn't known as a ferocious scrummager. He made some very solid tackles though and took the right options with his break. 6.5/10.
4. Brodie Retallick - A very quiet game from Retallick. He was dominant in the lineout but otherwise was very quiet. 6/10.
5. Sam Whitelock - A big game for Whitelock. 19 tackles and won all his own linouts. Gave away a few penalties but can probably be forgiven. 8/10.
6. Liam Messam - I thought he had a pretty quiet game. Didn't seem to be able to out muscle the English forwards like I'd have hoped. 6.5/10.
7. Richie McCaw - A very strong game from McCaw. Got a few turnovers and made the second most tackles again with 15. Seemed to keep the team composed as well. 8/10.
8. Kieran Read - His stats show why he is rated by many as the best player in the world. Other than his yellow card which may would feel was unlucky - and that rare dropped ball - he was once again magnificant. 8.5/10

9. Aaron Smith - Solid game but I do get frustrated with his box kicking. It's either never far enough for there to be any great advantage to risk a turnover or it's just pretty aimless. Overall I thought our kicking game was just overused this match. Smith only ran the ball once this game, which there was more oppertunity to do so than that. Other than that he was fine, his defense was generally pretty good before austingtir complains as he tackled at around 85% - and his passing was generally good. 6.5/10.
10. Daniel Carter - Looked good while he was on. Part of me was thinking in the leadup to the match that he'd get injured early as seems to be his thing now. Kicked well while he was on and ran the backline nicely. 6.5/10.
11. Julain Savea - I agree with the MoTM (although Mike Brown was up there). Ran more metres with ball in hand than any other player on the field, got two tries, three clean breaks, two offloads and two turnovers. Looked dangerous when ever he backed himself. His missed a few tackles - but to be fair he attempted tackles he had little chance of getting and usually put the oposing player under pressure for support to arrive. 8.5/10.
12. Ma'a Nonu - Actually had a big day defensively which is good after the France test. Great try assist but is still kicking generally too much for my liking (although he did a nice one to get us out of pressure). 7/10.
13. Ben Smith - Tidy enough game, certainly wasn't outstanding by any means. Didn't seem to threaten much but didn't get much ball either. 6/10.
14. Charles Piatau - Thought he had a good game. Was good when he was asked to make a tackle he made it, a nice bit of work in the air. Generally looked dangerous with the ball. Again more kicking than I like. 7.5/10.
15. Israel Dagg - An alright game but would prefer he backed himself more often. As it is he only made one tackle, so chances are he could have joined the line more in attack. Got some nice turnovers though. 6.5/10.

16. Dane Coles - Did reasonably well when he came on. Scrum went well enough and he made no errors. 7/10.
17. Wyatt Crockett - Only gave away one penalty which is a record for him. Overall he actually played pretty well, with the scrum holding up nicely in the end. 7/10.
18. Charlie Faumuina - Beginning to feel more comfortable with the idea of him starting after a poor performance earlier in the year against the Boks. The scrum looked to improve when he came on while his work in the loose was good. 7.5/10
19. Luke Romano - Had an unexceptional 15 minutes but probably to be expected coming back. I have to admit I'd prefer almost every other current AB lock than Romano - with that said the scrum worked well during that 15 minutes (although the improvements came before then). 5.5/10.
20. Steven Luatua - I thought looked pretty explosive when he came on. Seemed to hit rucks hard and got over the gainline and provided quick ball when he ran. 7/10
21. Tawera Kerr-Barlow - Have to admit I groaned when he came on, but we needed good defense and he provided that. His passes were quick although he still spends too long at a ruck. Probably his best game for the ABs though. I desperately want Peranara to start next game! 7.5/10.
22. Ryan Crotty - Made three tackles. Was only on 9 minutes so can't really be too critical or give too much praise. 6.5/10.

For England I thought Mike Brown had a very, very game. Looked very composed and was dangerous with ball in hand. Him, Yarde and Wade could be a very exciting backline. Farrell is a total prat with a face I'd like to drop a refrigerator on., but he generally controlled the game well. Vunipola was impressive for England. Justin Marshall was criticizing how he was hold the ball not looking for an offload - but to be honest any made more metres than any other England player because NZ kept kicking the ball to him, and he gave England good go forward ball. His work on the ground was also good for a man of his size. England's lineout got pillaged by the AB's and while Hartley was pretty unexceptional for England (4 runs for 2 metres and tackled at 66%!) Tom Youngs was even worse and didn't even provide a good setpiece! Morgan came on and made good impact for a second week.

 

[Chikwa]

If the ABs coaching team do not spot the weakness and still in dreamland..Then I cannot for foresee ABs retaining the world cup. So many weakness easily spotted. The most obvious, the front row. Woodcock and Owen were struggling. I recalled seeing one incident when both of them together and cannot even stop the England No 8.

It is accurate to say the AB's have weaknesses.As do all teams.I note a lot of members appear to be analysing the game from the perspective of "why England didn't win after playing so well.The English backs have been maligned for lacking guile.The line outs were poor in the second half.This could also be interpreted as outstanding all black defence and great line out reads from the locks who have been playing extremely well all season..The Springboks have expanded their game to be more creative.At Ellis Park they scored 4 tries.The Ab's scored 5!My point is yes the Ab's have weaknesses which need to be worked on but they also have the ability and championship mentality to do what is necessary to win games. At Ellis park they played with 14 men for 20 mins!(Now for same light hearted banter with the English fans) If the Ab's improve their game as I expect themTo do ,Lancaster ,Meyer and Mckenzie will be having the same nightmares Arsene Wenger (football coach of arsenal)had after losing 6 -1 to Manchester United.Legend had it that his alarm bell went off and his wife said Arsene wake up its nine . To which he shot bolt upright and said oh no have they scored their ninth!

 

[barthelemy]

England got very lucky, and some calls just weren't made against them. I recall another obstruction during some counter with 12trees being protected by some other white shirt. England have been getting away with - *a lot* in these Autumn internationals. That's just the objective truth. I wish I were English so ppl would attribute more credibility into what I'm saying. But it's been awkwardly unfair for Australia and NZ this November. Anyways: - All-Blacks: are frail psychologically. I understand the pressure is immense beyond immensity for them because they *must* win every single test, but in Twickenham they have a complex now. Last year they looked weird and weak, something was very obviously amiss. I buy the poisoning thing. Because of that one seemingly random bump on the road, they were today in the downward spiral of a mental complex. - England: some excellent play. The defense still isn't as good as other sides, France defended the All-Blacks suffocatingly last week to the point where people didn't recognize them. Today, they were recognizable, but limited by very intense and organized English play. But the attack still is not very entertaining to watch: not that France are marvelous these days, but on the topic of England, England are similar to S.A. Very powerful, but they throw themselves at the opponent, build 20 phases each trip down the NZ side, and finally get a penalty and kick in 3, or lose the ball because they can't string more than 5 passes together. The maul is powerful though, and they looked very strong and imposing with those waves, as one-dimensional and perhaps boring as they were; those white bodies thrown at the black defense made NZ move backwards with every impact. Scrums looked very handsome for England early, but NZ got a few powerful pushes themselves. All in all, sorry England for my anti-Englishness but I'm just stating what's on my mind: England have benefited of 7 illegal points and de facto a victory against the Green and Gold, and if not for the most amazing mistake in Kieran Read's career should have been try-less the whole 80 minutes, with not many other real chances to score. And that comment from both English commentators was despicable: they called that Launchbury try a due for not getting the try previously on that collapsing maul over the line. I've seen a TON of tries not called because of that, including, against those very All-Blacks ourselves last week in Paris. There is no "due", and in fact for this particular case, it's the exact opposite: England couldn't have dreamed of such a mistake 1 meter from the try line. No team would, and not against the Blacks. All-Blacks: you guys sure are havin trouble playing in Europe, ay. Still 3 tries here. England are powerful but boring, but are a formidable foe and I'm eager to see what France will manage in the opener next Feb. Not being negative-only on purpose, but I wouldn't be near satisfied would I be either English or NZ'er today, that's for sure.

You talked loads of crap. Sorry. Today, the game was great, AB have been lucky to get the win, this is a kind of objective truth. England has played a great game , they were up to the challenge definitely. I would like to take some sort of heights and remembering how it was 10 years ago. Against the AB, it was a lucky win with being dominated all the game. Most of the times, it was 40 to 60 points and good night ! England can talk about it, they have very very few wins against AB, France a bit more, do not ask me why, certainly the magic of the moment. Today, this is not the same result at all. I see some Northern hemisphere teams (France and England especially) being able to dominate an AB side along the match. AB stays a wonderful team, clinical and awesome but the gap between them and leading northern hemisphere teams is shrinking and this is what we can take out of the AB games this autumn in my perspective.

 

[Chikwa]

You talked loads of crap. Sorry. Today, the game was great, AB have been lucky to get the win, this is a kind of objective truth. England has played a great game , they were up to the challenge definitely. I would like to take some sort of heights and remembering how it was 10 years ago. Against the AB, it was a lucky win with being dominated all the game. Most of the times, it was 40 to 60 points and good night ! England can talk about it, they have very very few wins against AB, France a bit more, do not ask me why, certainly the magic of the moment. Today, this is not the same result at all. I see some Northern hemisphere teams (France and England especially) being able to dominate an AB side along the match. AB stays a wonderful team, clinical and awesome but the gap between them and leading northern hemisphere teams is shrinking and this is what we can take out of the AB games this autumn in my perspective.

Is that what Lancaster will tell his charges?

 

[Sweatybee]

stuff

So the All Blacks score 3 tries to 1 but were dominated and were lucky to get the win? Interesting perspective.

 

[austingtir]

You talked loads of crap. Sorry. Today, the game was great, AB have been lucky to get the win, this is a kind of objective truth. England has played a great game , they were up to the challenge definitely. I would like to take some sort of heights and remembering how it was 10 years ago. Against the AB, it was a lucky win with being dominated all the game. Most of the times, it was 40 to 60 points and good night ! England can talk about it, they have very very few wins against AB, France a bit more, do not ask me why, certainly the magic of the moment. Today, this is not the same result at all. I see some Northern hemisphere teams (France and England especially) being able to dominate an AB side along the match. AB stays a wonderful team, clinical and awesome but the gap between them and leading northern hemisphere teams is shrinking and this is what we can take out of the AB games this autumn in my perspective.

Im still more impressed by France than England. France just need to find about 3 or 4 quality backs as some of the guys they have there now make errors that school boys over here would be disgusted with. I dont agree the AB's were lucky to get the win. NZ dominated the first 15 minutes of this game... England fought well to get back into by half time. Reads sending off helped them ALOT and gave them some momentum. Then at the 50 minute mark we had about three or four decisions in a row which lead to huge field position gains and atleast 3 to 6 points. After that it was game over to the AB's closed them out and shut them down well (normal service resumed). Read's sending off and the three or four penalties kept Eng in the game simple as that.

This was kinda similar to the AB's SA game at eden park in some respects. Dubious decisions gave the AB's a decided advantage in that game. Thats all im saying went on in this game.

This should have been a blow out score under normal circumstances.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Here are my thoughts, which I know you've all been waiting for

The refereeing was not great, it can't be overlooked. Many people consider Joubert to be the top referee in the world, and that's not an opinion I share. I think his general play refereeing is fine, but I absolutely hate the way he deals with offsides. One of my favourite moments in the match was when Cruden ran around the ruck to grab the ball (he was told off by Joubert, and didn't interfere with play in the end). If you watch the replay, you'll see that the English halfback clearly touched the ball, which I'm sure you're all aware is Joubert code for "It's out". Unfortunately, he doesn't apply this consistently. Nowhere in the rules does it say that hands on the ball constitutes the ball being out of the ruck, and I'm not sure if that's how referees have been told to umpire the breakdown, but the biggest irk for me is that it isn't applied consistently. Cruden played in the Super Rugby final, where this was particularly abysmally refereed, and Joubert was the referee then too. The referee panel needs to come out and publicly declare what the rule is, and then that needs to be applied consistently. It's bad enough that it differs from referee to referee, but to change from breakdown to breakdown is appalling. That being said, I wasn't surprised. I was a bit disappointed at some of the calls too, but I don't think it happened often enough to favour England (except that obvious time when Read was yellow carded, when it should have been a penalty to the All Blacks, and I also think there was a time before England's try, where it should've been a turn over but Joubert didn't call it, and England quickly earned a penalty.

Moving on, I think the All Blacks were quite good around the park. Every week I'm frustrated with Nonu's kicking. He made two good kicks during the game, his first and (I think) his last (the big clearing kick), but otherwise he does it far too often. If he isn't passing the ball you can almost guarantee he'll kick it away. I'd love to see Saili start next week, just to get another game. Ben Smith is getting better week after week. Piutau and Savea both strong, we're developing great depth in the outside backs.

For England, Vunipolo was massive, and was probably close to the man of the match for me. He gained a few metres without fail every time he carried the ball. It looked like he might have a fitness problem (unsurprising, given his physique) because otherwise why would you take off your most potent strike weapon? That being said, his replacement was equally good, I'd be tempted to play both of them at 6 and 8, with Croft at 7 and have Robshaw on the bench. As a general question to all, why is that the Six Nations teams seem to be different from the public's perceptions of what the team should be, when compared to the Souther Hemisphere teams? Most kiwis, Ozzies and South Africans are generally pretty content with the selections, bar the odd call, whilst there always seems to be a lot of complaints when the 6N squads/23's are announced, but maybe I'm just imagining the difference?

And Farrell, what an absolute wa*ker! When Cruden was talking to the ref Farrell shoved him in the chest and whined that he wasn't the captain. What a wingeing baby, I wish someone had smacked him in the head!

Next week against Ireland I'd like to see a lineup of:
Crockett, Coles, Faumuina, Romano, Whitelock/Retallick, Luatua, McCaw, Read, Kerr-Barlow, Cruden, Savea, Saili, Smith, Jane, Dagg
Hore, Toomaga-Allen, Franks, Bird, Cane, Perenara, Barrett, Taylor

 

[Chikwa]

Here are my thoughts, which I know you've all been waiting for

The refereeing was not great, it can't be overlooked. Many people consider Joubert to be the top referee in the world, and that's not an opinion I share. I think his general play refereeing is fine, but I absolutely hate the way he deals with offsides. One of my favourite moments in the match was when Cruden ran around the ruck to grab the ball (he was told off by Joubert, and didn't interfere with play in the end). If you watch the replay, you'll see that the English halfback clearly touched the ball, which I'm sure you're all aware is Joubert code for "It's out". Unfortunately, he doesn't apply this consistently. Nowhere in the rules does it say that hands on the ball constitutes the ball being out of the ruck, and I'm not sure if that's how referees have been told to umpire the breakdown, but the biggest irk for me is that it isn't applied consistently. Cruden played in the Super Rugby final, where this was particularly abysmally refereed, and Joubert was the referee then too. The referee panel needs to come out and publicly declare what the rule is, and then that needs to be applied consistently. It's bad enough that it differs from referee to referee, but to change from breakdown to breakdown is appalling. That being said, I wasn't surprised. I was a bit disappointed at some of the calls too, but I don't think it happened often enough to favour England (except that obvious time when Read was yellow carded, when it should have been a penalty to the All Blacks, and I also think there was a time before England's try, where it should've been a turn over but Joubert didn't call it, and England quickly earned a penalty.

Moving on, I think the All Blacks were quite good around the park. Every week I'm frustrated with Nonu's kicking. He made two good kicks during the game, his first and (I think) his last (the big clearing kick), but otherwise he does it far too often. If he isn't passing the ball you can almost guarantee he'll kick it away. I'd love to see Saili start next week, just to get another game. Ben Smith is getting better week after week. Piutau and Savea both strong, we're developing great depth in the outside backs.

For England, Vunipolo was massive, and was probably close to the man of the match for me. He gained a few metres without fail every time he carried the ball. It looked like he might have a fitness problem (unsurprising, given his physique) because otherwise why would you take off your most potent strike weapon? That being said, his replacement was equally good, I'd be tempted to play both of them at 6 and 8, with Croft at 7 and have Robshaw on the bench.

And Farrell, what an absolute wa*ker! When Cruden was talking to the ref Farrell shoved him in the chest and whined that he wasn't the captain. What a wingeing baby, I wish someone had smacked him in the head!

Next week against Ireland I'd like to see a lineup of:
Crockett, Coles, Faumuina, Romano, Whitelock/Retallick, Luatua, McCaw, Read, Kerr-Barlow, Cruden, Savea, Saili, Smith, Jane, Dagg
Hore, Toomaga-Allen, Franks, Bird, Cane, Perenara, Barrett, Taylor

Sony bill Williams will be ahead of Saali.Thats if he doesn't get an offer from Hollywood that he and his manger have to mull over!

 

[Sam Owen]

Sony bill Williams will be ahead of Saali.Thats if he doesn't get an offer from Hollywood that he and his manger have to mull over!

Id rather have SBW in at 2nd five then Saili, I feel Sonny offers more. Sonny is more stable and more entertaining. The only bad thing about Sonny would be his novice kicking game. I think the ABs coaching staff had already anticipated problems with the 2nd fives hence their chasing of Sonny after the NRL grand final. I'm not saying the current incumbents and the stock are poor, they're good, but I think the brains trust are after something more and that's what I feel Sonny offers.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Kaino coming back will be a great help to the AB back row.
We are fine with locks but the replenishment of the front row is a little bit more tricky.
We seem to have loads of halfbacks and first fives but at 2nd five and centre we don't have much in the cupboard.
We missed Conrad on the northern tour.
Ma'a missed Conrad as well.
Sonny Bill is only going to be a short term prospect at best. Careers are short but SBW is certainly keen to maximise his time in the limelight. If he does come back he won't stay for long so it's back to the drawing board. I had high hopes for Kahui but I haven't heard anything about him coming back from Nippon.
Wings we have in abundance. I like the three we have at the moment a lot and Dagg is a wonderful fullback, Piatau an excellent cover for Fullback.

Are we sliding?
Maybe a little in the front row. Mealaamu and Hore must be close to retirement, maybe Woodcock as well and McCaw can't play forever. Yet to see any Kiwi sniffer rising up through the ranks who could come close to comparing against the great man.
Other than that I'm ok with what Hansen has and is doing.

Joubert got swayed by the crowd at Twickenham. For a while he reminded me of that other referee from saffer-ville, Andre whats-his- face, who would actively bring other teams back into the game to keep the score 'toit' and 'abso-lute-lee more-villous'.

The AB's made mistakes yesterday afternoon and got pinged for them, the English made mistakes and got away with 50% of them. That was worth 9 points at a time when England were 17-3 down and changed the momentum of the game considerably before gifting them the one man advantage after Read clearly came in from the rear and behind the last feet.

I know the Aussies are classic for moaning about the reffing at Twickenham, and over the years i have seen them suffer unduly (which ultimately led to a chortle or two). I hadn't noticed it so much against us until yesterdays match, and then had to suffer the outraged audacity of the stripey blazer gang at the ground who claimed that the ref hadn't given them anything.
Oh dear...

The AB's were not at their best but fairness tells us that is because England were stronger in areas that caused pressure and pressure brings mistakes. England were stronger in the game at times partly because of advantageous reffing decisions that gave them field position and easy shots at goal and an extra man for 10 minutes.

 

[smartcooky]

If the ABs coaching team do not spot the weakness and still in dreamland..Then I cannot for foresee ABs retaining the world cup. So many weakness easily spotted. The most obvious, the front row. Woodcock and Owen were struggling. I recalled seeing one incident when both of them together and cannot even stop the England No 8.

agree.. AB front row had a bad day, i'm impressed with Crockett work rate, this was his best test in my opinion.. !

I don't know what match you were watching, but it clearly wasn't the one I was watching.

Scrum 1: 10 min - England feed
England tried to wheel the scrum but NZ drive straight through them, popped Hartley, demolished them, and won the turnover

Scrum 2: 15min - England feed
Free kick to NZ for England "hit and chase"

Scrum 3: 21 min - England feed
Penalty to England for NZ illegal "whip wheel"

Scrum 4: 23 min
This was the scrum that led to the try, but it should not have been allowed. The video shown to the TMO didn't go far enough back (another couple of seconds) to show that the England scrumhalf kicked the ball forward in, or into, his own scrum.

If the ball was out of the scrum, then all the England players ahead of him were offside...should have been a penalty to NZ

If the referee decided decided that it was accidental offside, the scrumhalf still returned the ball into the scrum... should have been a penalty to NZ


If the referee decided that the ball was not out of the scrum, then the scrum-half kicked the ball while it was still in the scrum...should have been a penalty to NZ

Scrum 5: 29 min - NZ feed
NZ clean heel and win

Scrum 6: 36 min - NZ feed (Read off with YC)
Penalty to England for Mealamu standing up

HALF TIME

Scrum 7: 41 min - NZ feed (Read off with YC)
NZ pushed back but still won ball

Scrum 8: 42 min - England feed
Free kick to England for NZ "hit and chase"

Scrum 9: 43 min - England feed
Big push by NZ. England tighthead prop goes straight to the deck, should have been penalty to NZ for collapsing

Scrum 10: 73 min - England feed
Wheeled (hard to tell by which team) but England won ball cleanly anyway.

Scrum 11: 76 min - NZ feed
NZ clean heel and win

And you think all this was a bad day at the office for the NZ front row?

You talked loads of crap. Sorry. Today, the game was great, AB have been lucky to get the win, this is a kind of objective truth. England has played a great game , they were up to the challenge definitely. I would like to take some sort of heights and remembering how it was 10 years ago. Against the AB, it was a lucky win with being dominated all the game. Most of the times, it was 40 to 60 points and good night ! England can talk about it, they have very very few wins against AB, France a bit more, do not ask me why, certainly the magic of the moment. Today, this is not the same result at all. I see some Northern hemisphere teams (France and England especially) being able to dominate an AB side along the match. AB stays a wonderful team, clinical and awesome but the gap between them and leading northern hemisphere teams is shrinking and this is what we can take out of the AB games this autumn in my perspective.

This post is just plain wrong and contains so much unadulterated crap, its hardly worth commenting on, except for calling it out for what it is... bo11ocks!

 

[austingtir]

^^^ The scrum try... what about the wheeling of the scrum? To me that was an automatic penalty to England. As that happened before the halfback kicked the ball through. That try was all sorts of dodgyness going on. I do think England kinda deserved it so im not that miffed about it just the Reff seemed to allow that mess to just continue on which seemed ridiculous.

Imo also by the time the scrum half kicked the ball through the scrum was in like three or four pieces and few were properly bound anymore.... to me not a scrum anymore... It was just a joke of a mess at the end of the day. There had to be a penalty in there somewhere.

 

[Patchey]

The ref officiated the break down pretty badly for both sides. It just so happens that England got the penalties going their way in better positions.

Still it was a cracking game of rugby, England really raised their game (why can't we do that all the time??) and New Zealand shower why their World Champions etc by being clinical when it counted and grinding the game down at the end.

If I had to highlight one area that England lost the game in it would be the 13 channel. Botched line outs and some uninaginitive work from Farrell played a part but it was Tompkins' inability to pass that really stifled the backs. Every time he took the ball (when he caught it) he put his head down and ran at the defense. No passing and none of his much talked about offloading game. We replaced Manu 'cant't pass' Tuilagi with Joel 'won't pass' Tompkins.

/Rant

 

[Big Ewis]

mmmyeah, so anyways admist the flaws and things both sides really really should look into, and the bad refereeing, this still had a lot of good for England. I'll repeat neither fans should be happy with this match, there's no way I'd be happy as a NZ'er or an Englishman, but I'd like to say this for both teams:

New Zealand can thank the Lord they have Kieran Read (except for forgetting the ball 3m from the try-line, that was shocking). In a sea of great competences and ability that are the All-Blacks, he's one of the special guy who seems to be hellbent on leaving his imprint on a game noticeably. His offloads, running, rucking, all the subtle little things that make a huge difference. I think with Carter and McCaw toning down lately, they really needed the one guy to be able to step up and kind of always have his thing going when the rest of the team are at a loss.

Another thing is the breakdown. Surely they had some strong moments, but referees seem to actually be calling penalties more and more on ground play against NZ lately.
NZ have not enjoyed the counter-attacking, turnovers and all the things that make them so good at the breakdown against France and England these last two tests. They haven't looked panickingly frightening with ball in hand for a while and have had to score tries the *hard way* so far in Europe, in traffic and with a lot of fixing 2 defenders on one guy to free up the finisher. Plays that require a lot of dexterity, and multiple stages of a play to all go right for the 7 points to come. Tries have not come off like 60m running and stuff we've seen a lot against France in test 2 last summer for e.g. And just for emphasis on that point, they have been comprehensively out-rucked against both France and England. How uncommon is that of a notion ?

And again the 60-40% possession and territory to the home team against NZ.

England:
Vunipola and Twelvetrees have been really solid and visible the whole game. BIG contributors for England and still young (esp. the no8). Farrell making all his kicks in such a high pressure game is a *big* plus for England. They know they can really count on him by now; sheer confirmation there.
Mike Brown is awesome. He keeps breaking tackles, 1-2-3-4, keeps going...he's a ball of nerve, has good experience now and yet still the vigor of youth. He can run, confuse opponents not just straight running, makes the timely pass and his lateral movement evades so many tackles it's scary for opposite sides.

If England can keep him healthy, add Yarde+Wade and see them playing to their potential, along with 12trees and Tuilagi, they'll have a formidable backline for the next few years. And they won't have to rely so heavily on Tuilagi for scoring opportunities, which was the goal I think England set themselves for the near future.

 

[Chikwa]

I don't know what match you were watching, but it clearly wasn't the one I was watching.

Scrum 1: 10 min - England feed
England tried to wheel the scrum but NZ drive straight through them, popped Hartley, demolished them, and won the turnover

Scrum 2: 15min - England feed
Free kick to NZ for England "hit and chase"

Scrum 3: 21 min - England feed
Penalty to England for NZ illegal "whip wheel"

Scrum 4: 23 min
This was the scrum that led to the try, but it should not have been allowed. The video shown to the TMO didn't go far enough back (another couple of seconds) to show that the England scrumhalf kicked the ball forward in, or into, his own scrum.

If the ball was out of the scrum, then all the England players ahead of him were offside...should have been a penalty to NZ

If the referee decided decided that it was accidental offside, the scrumhalf still returned the ball into the scrum... should have been a penalty to NZ


If the referee decided that the ball was not out of the scrum, then the scrum-half kicked the ball while it was still in the scrum...should have been a penalty to NZ

Scrum 5: 29 min - NZ feed
NZ clean heel and win

Scrum 6: 36 min - NZ feed (Read off with YC)
Penalty to England for Mealamu standing up

HALF TIME

Scrum 7: 41 min - NZ feed (Read off with YC)
NZ pushed back but still won ball

Scrum 8: 42 min - England feed
Free kick to England for NZ "hit and chase"

Scrum 9: 43 min - England feed
Big push by NZ. England tighthead prop goes straight to the deck, should have been penalty to NZ for collapsing

Scrum 10: 73 min - England feed
Wheeled (hard to tell by which team) but England won ball cleanly anyway.

Scrum 11: 76 min - NZ feed
NZ clean heel and win

And you think all this was a bad day at the office for the NZ front row?





This post is just plain wrong and contains so much unadulterated crap, its hardly worth commenting on, except for calling it out for what it is... bo11ocks!

Thanks this is a necessary contribution to this discussion.This was clearly much improved New Zealand scrum.I am still analysing the game to try to understand the opinion that the English forwards were superior but were let down by the lack of creativity in the back line?Clearly their superiority was not at scrum time or in the line outs.Help?

 

[martinspoonboy1]

agree.. AB front row had a bad day, i'm impressed with Crockett work rate, this was his best test in my opinion.. AB backs was almost invisible at times, especially when Carter went off injured, Ben Smith was struggling at center and his values only shown after Crotty came in with Ben moved to wing; Jane should starts in next match against Ireland, Piutau probably bench, i thought he faded after the brilliance in last test against France, the foul quick throw had unnecessary put AB on pressure.

My MOTM is Mike Brown from England, he is simply brilliant and the best full back for 2013.

Villain is the ref, Joubert was hopeless, couldn't believe he missed Parling obstruction to McCaw and next his called a foul against AB Crockett.. dumb ass!

Read has a massive game, despite the bin, he is my IRB player of the year!

Seen him do that week in week out for Quins for years, so glad Lancaster has realised that 1. He's better than Goode! 2. He's not a winger!

 

[martinspoonboy1]

I think the biggest positive to take from the game as an England fan as that the players genuinely seemed gutted that they didn't win. If you go back a few seasons, the team would have been reasonably content with losing by less than 20. Definitely on the right track!

 

[smartcooky]

^^^ The scrum try... what about the wheeling of the scrum? To me that was an automatic penalty to England. As that happened before the halfback kicked the ball through. That try was all sorts of dodgyness going on. I do think England kinda deserved it so im not that miffed about it just the Reff seemed to allow that mess to just continue on which seemed ridiculous.

Imo also by the time the scrum half kicked the ball through the scrum was in like three or four pieces and few were properly bound anymore.... to me not a scrum anymore... It was just a joke of a mess at the end of the day. There had to be a penalty in there somewhere.

Why must it be automatic? It is not illegal, per se, to wheel the scrum!

There are legal and illegal ways to wheel the scrum. "Walking around" and "pulling back" (whip wheel) are illegal, and neither of those happened in that scrum.

 

[Big Ewis]

All Blacks to lose against Ireland.

BRAIN O'DRISCOLL!!!

:lol:
so random...good stuff.