RBS 6 Nations - England vs Wales - 25/02/2012, 16:00

[Robert Prosser]

I think both teams played well. Wales definitely seem to have a good side in the making and so do England. Barrit and Tuilagi could turn into a pretty decent centre partnership. And pretty impressed with Farrel. George North for Wales was good, Jamie Roberts was pretty disappointing though. I think Wales can definitely get the Grand Slam. Are they playing France at home?

Yeah it the last game of the championship.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Peat, you know as well as anyone that regardless whether Stevens was fairly competing, if the referee tells you enough is enough, you do what he says, you get your hands out. It seems to me that at the breakdown nowadays there is always some degree of the tackled player holding onto the ball, at least for a while. What differs is the extent to which refereers tolerate it. At the moment referees are favouring attacking rugby it would seem, therefore fairly often you get a case where a player is competing very fairly for the ball, and indeed seems to have won it, only for the referee to shout at him off. That's just part of where rugby is, and Stevens should have got his hands off earlier.

Our props actually do a great amount of competing at the breakdown, I guess they have all the strength plus a good height for a typical 7 ( My, possibly outdated idea of an ideal 7 is 5 11/6 ft, not much more than 16 stone, probably something like 15 stone 10. That body size allows you to get over the ball effectively ( I know Warbuton is bigger than this, so clearly that doesn't count against you). Anyway, Stevens' madness aside, I think we have props who are good in the loose.

Dullonien, jeez those early scrums had me worried. Admittedly it would have taken a few more scrums for SW to justify a penalty try but the dominance was there. Poor Alex C...

 

[slowprop]

Some props seem to struggle against certain opposition.

This is true. However Corbs does occasionally struggle with hhis scrummaging in the premiership. I guess you have to make a decision whether to give young props a chance. Adam Jones has developed into a world class tight head but it took him a few years of international Rugby to get to that position.

 

[gingergenius]

mmmm I forgot to talk about the scrum. I can't remember seeing an England unit creak like that - maybe the first time since Tim Payne played? In fairness, it looked as though all the pressure was coming from Jones to Corbisiero, with Cole vs. Jenkins a roughly equal contest. Corbs is (imo) excellent in the loose, and usually holds his own up in the scrum unless he's against a good tighthead (like Jones, or Nieto from the time I remember Irish playing Saracens this season).

Two things come from this - firstly, I hope Corbisiero continues to work on his scrummaging, as slowprop says Jones (and Jenkins too I reckon) have both taken a while to develop into the excellent scrummagers they are today, and hopefully that happens with Corbs, Marler etc. Secondly, it does make you realise how nice it was having Sheridan at loosehead, for all the criticism he received at the time!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I do think we've found a great pair of props to see us thriugh for a while to come. I would love to see marler debuted from the bench however; he's too much of a scrummaging risk for a high stakes game against france, but if we lose that one as i think is likely, he may be worth a place against ireland.

Another positive that could come from losing against france is us trying out an openside. Seems unlikely though, i mean if lancaster and farrel didnt feel the need for one after scotland they won't have suddenly realised it after an improved performance against wales.

Don't know what others think but i've pleased with hartleys performances.

Just a general question here to anyone who knows, and not because of any incident that took place, but is it possible to be cited for general bad sportsmanship. Say, if the other team have a chance of a quick lineout in attacking position and a player kicks the ball out the stadium? I suspect. Citings are just for physical misdemeanous such as tackles, but not completely sure.

 

[cyRil]

Another positive that could come from losing against france is us trying out an openside.

Watching him for Toulon, I don't know what Steffon has to do to get a call-up.

 

[mstar]

I went to the match and now back he is my match report. I wrote this watching live and then watch the FULL match on TV on sunday.

Sorry about late posting, <Ohere is my views:
<O
Ben Foden – 6/10 Kicking under pressure seems to be a problem for Foden laterly and i dont know why! His positioning/defending is sound, but his failure to find touch from his mark led to Wales's try. Counterattacked to some effect, but lacked awareness to bring Strettle/Ashton into the game. I really dont know what to say about Foden he seems to be error prone more laterly i hope he settles down.

Chris Ashton – 5 Once again seems to struggle to get involved. He is running his supporting lines but seems to make crucial errors at the last minute he seems to me needs more time club level to bring up his form england need. Hopefull his new club coach him some variation to his game as i got the impression Shuan Edwards did their homework on him as he never had any space to run freely and he didnt have the intelligence to vary his runs. Would like him to run more dummy runs for others. Wouldnt cry if he was dropped as he done very little.
<O></O>

Manu Tuilagi – 8 Added Go-forwards we so lacked in the last 2 games. He completely took Roberts out of his game and made him ineffective. Great coaching tactics as he was such a threat Roberts had to keep tracking him to stop Tuilagi getting past as he needs 2 people to stop him. One thing i saw watching from the grandstands was he needs to work on his awareness with his support runners. THis i think is due to lack of match time and his first time playing in the team. Expect England coachs hammer home in training next week for him to look around more and not try to shake off people rely on his strength all the time. Faded after 55 mins maybe he got tired as playing club rugby is not as intense as international level (had to mark him down for that). The England midfield needs to be built around him for us to be a force in next years 6N.

<O</OBrad Barritt – 8 I been watching Barrit closely for 2 games (as i been saying here on TRF), and i can honestly say his execution to make the Blitz defence work from the centre is great. We havnt had a intelleigent Defensive maestro for awhile. Barrit is our defence king, the way he positions himself very few (if any) get past him. His honed technique is the key here i think he goes so low and hits hard. Tackles all day long until he can't stand anymore, people who play rugby like myself do not appreciate how tiring physically and mentally it is to tackle for the full 80mins it takes it out of you. It seems the England Coachs made sure they got Barrit firing as he nullified Rhys Priestland, who hasn't got the experience tactically to out smart Englands tactics which targetted him (and worked). Great tactics by England defence coach using the centres. With Tuilagi teams will not make it through the middle easily.
<O</O

David Strettle – 7 Probably the best of the 3, saved England in the opening minutes with an ankle-tap on George North and nearly drew the game in the final minute. I am not sure of him defensively but offensively our most dangerous winger. Ran some great support for Tuilagi but Tuilagni never passed him the ball. He is getting better and better each game More involved than he had been in the previous two games combined, some of his decision making is a bit suspect i am putting it to inexperience i am expecting more improvement.

<O</O
Owen Farrell – 8 Had a great game, tackled bigger men then him and had creativity and kicking was on song again. I cant sya how great he is seems the No.10 position was no concern to him. I think he can work on his distributor and kicking skills rathe then a ball carrier/runner. He is a bit light weight and i could see he was targetted by wales as soon as he had the ball as he is a little "light" Made a mistake to kick again five metres out in the opening half, but thats just inexperience at this level. His goal-kicking is consistent and great. Missed one penalty so marked down 1 point. Flood can't take his place i think all 6N as farrell just seems real world class quality.

Lee Dickson – 7 Played consitently well, rather then the usual idiotic youngs. He deliberatly slowed to the ball to make sure england could pick there moves and not let wales rush out and tackle england when we were still positioning for a attack. Substitution seemed harsh as he seemed to get better and his commanding of people around him got better. I hope it was for a little njury/tiredness NOT becuase lancaster thinks youngs is better...

Alex Corbisiero – 7 Tackled well as the game tackle count had a little issue in the scrum but recovered and did great work on the loose. He gets about the field a lot more then normal props in his position thats a positive.

Dylan Hartley – 7 Can't really say much about dylan he played well and did well in the scrum. Made his usual high tackle rate and always in the action another consistent performance. Good lineut throwing.

Dan Cole – 6 much like the other 2, but have to mark down as he Conceded two early penalties, only one of which was converted. I like him to be a go-to forward from slow ball, he needs to get more involved and do more ball carring.

Mouritz Botha – 8 I like Mouritz he works VERY HARD, i was watching him closely people just do not see how hard he works. He takes hard hits and tackles hard too. He was VERY good at slowing the opposition ball down and clearing out on his own ball. You can see the coaching team have been working on this especially for wales as they are very potent with quick ball. Great charge-down good polished performance. Should of stayed on the pitch, he was grinding down wales.
<O
></O>
Geoff Parling – 8 Very surprised with parling. I confess not seen much of him, but Lancaster pulled a masterstroke and was right to drop Tom Palmer. Gave us a reliable go-to man at lineout and you could see in the stadium he was constantly managing the lineouts which was great to see as he took
responsibility and all looked for his guidance. Was fantastic in the loose his tackle rate was the highest he tackled anything in front of him. and another reliable ball-carrying option. Won most turnovers then any other England player.

Tom Croft – 6 I am not sure about crofty as it just doesn't look the backrow is balanced with him? but croft is quality some how we need to make more use of his pace as a attack threat, is it the team or the coaching that letting him down? Is great as a lineout and caused problems to wales and gives parling options when devising strategy for crucial lineouts. The blend in England's back row is still in the mixing stage.

Chris Robshaw (Capt) – 7 Played with usual guts and high work-rate. If an award would be given to "person with dirtiest shirt" he would get it. After 5 mins he had the most dirtiest shirt! he Stole a lineout in his own 22 and forced turnovers, tackled his heart out and had reasonable success keeping warburton at bay. He was made himself available to make the hard yards and was the one people looked to take ball into contact. Has to watch discipline as another day he would have seen yellow for tipping Sam Warburton at a lineout. But another consistent effort.

Ben Morgan – 7 Is his fitness we talked about in TRF real? maybe so as he slowly drifted out of the game in 2nd half. Made very good runs with the ball, and was a thorn in wales side made toby falateu seem he wasn't on the pitch as another no.8. Tackled well, one thing i liked was in the breakdown he was tapping people to leave balls when referee was warning them and pushing his players to obey orders from referee. Should good leadership i thought. Well contained after skipping away from Warburton in the opening minute, but England showed they are able to play on the front foot.

Ben youngs - 4 why is this guy playing? comes on makes 2 errors. Seems shadow of him former self. What has happened ben? he should be left out until he finds some form.

Courtney Lawes 5 - played well got physical straight away but steal was very clumbsy not expected from a force like courtney. He will be hurting and i can't seeing him starting. BUt make no mistake when he is on-form he is world class.

Dowson - well nothing to say didn't see any significant he did tackled well in closing stages but nothing special. Morgan probably the chosen staring 8 from now on.

 

[HowieLO6]

Watching him for Toulon, I don't know what Steffon has to do to get a call-up.

Changing this part of his game would be a good start.

 

[5morri5]

Advantage was taken when we went over the line, so we definitely shouldn't have gone back for the penalty, BUT, George North rolled the ball back with his arm/hand, after the questionable grounding. Strettle was tackled and held, therefore a ruck had formed. George North came in from the side (penalty offence 1) and then handled the ball in the Ruck (penalty offence 2) so regardless of whether it was a try or not we should have had a new penalty awarded.

 

[Peat]

Peat, you know as well as anyone that regardless whether Stevens was fairly competing, if the referee tells you enough is enough, you do what he says, you get your hands out. It seems to me that at the breakdown nowadays there is always some degree of the tackled player holding onto the ball, at least for a while. What differs is the extent to which refereers tolerate it. At the moment referees are favouring attacking rugby it would seem, therefore fairly often you get a case where a player is competing very fairly for the ball, and indeed seems to have won it, only for the referee to shout at him off. That's just part of where rugby is, and Stevens should have got his hands off earlier.

Our props actually do a great amount of competing at the breakdown, I guess they have all the strength plus a good height for a typical 7 ( My, possibly outdated idea of an ideal 7 is 5 11/6 ft, not much more than 16 stone, probably something like 15 stone 10. That body size allows you to get over the ball effectively ( I know Warbuton is bigger than this, so clearly that doesn't count against you). Anyway, Stevens' madness aside, I think we have props who are good in the loose.

Dullonien, jeez those early scrums had me worried. Admittedly it would have taken a few more scrums for SW to justify a penalty try but the dominance was there. Poor Alex C...

As I said - sometimes you genuinely don't hear him. I mean obviously if you hear him, you get your hands off the bloody ball, but sometimes it doesn't happen. For all I know Stevens did hear and was a tard, its possible to say the least. To boil my point down though, you kinda have to accept that sometimes your ballhog will annoy the referee, and while that was a cheap enough one, it's part of the devil's bargain - Stevens has won two key turnovers in the last two matches, so I'm not going to to get too het up by that one. Well that's how I see it anyway.

But yes, our props are superb at the breakdown, particularly Dan Cole who is turning rapidly into Gethin Jenkins' tighthead alter-ego.

edit: Wondering if its completely a coincidence that the slightly lighter lock pairing resulted in the worst scrum yet (without wishing to take anything from Wales who obviously have a good scrum and did the damage). It wasn't much lighter so maybe not... who am I kidding, I just want one of Attwood and Garvey in post-haste.

 

[Thingimubob]

Advantage was taken when we went over the line, so we definitely shouldn't have gone back for the penalty, BUT, George North rolled the ball back with his arm/hand, after the questionable grounding. Strettle was tackled and held, therefore a ruck had formed. George North came in from the side (penalty offence 1) and then handled the ball in the Ruck (penalty offence 2) so regardless of whether it was a try or not we should have had a new penalty awarded.

Not sure it applies in that situation, could've sworn I've heard somewhere that a ruck cant technically be formed over the try line, so North was well within his rights to push the ball back. I might be wrong though, so don't hold me to it

 

[dullonien]

That was a good post mstar. Here's my ratings for Welsh players:

Gethin Jenkins - 9 : There's not much more to say about Gethin that hasn't been said already. Another top quality performance. Part of a dominant scrummaging performance, and was once again everywhere in the loose. He put in more tackles than any of the English forwards, which says something about his fitness levels.

Ken Owens - 7 : I thought that was a very good full debut for the young hooker. Had a couple of wobbles in the lineout, but overall I thought this aspect of the game went better than expected. He put in alot of work around the pitch, with some good carries. He put in a monster tackle on Botha which stopped him in his tracks. Faded a little towards the end, but overall very happy with his performance.

Adam Jones - 8 : Monster scrummaging display, but also put in alot of work around the field. Made a couple of very important cover tackles. It's nice to finally have him and Gethin having a few games together.

Alun Wyn Jones - 6 : Obviously lacked gametime, but worked hard. Not up to his usual high standard though.

Ian Evans - 8 : For me Evans was the stand-out second-row on the pitch. Was the go-to man in the lineout, securing some good ball for Phillips. His work at the breakdown was also very good for a lock, hitting plenty of rucks and securing at least one turn-over with some good counter-rucking. Nice to have the big man back and firing.

Dan Lydiate - 7 : His tackle count was high as always (quite a few more than anyone else), and he missed zero tackles to boot. Made a couple of good carries. Overall a little quieter than usual, with less big hits. Still a very solid display.

Sam Warburton - 9 : What a display from the captain. It's since been revealed that he hasn't done any contact work in training since the opening Ireland game, which makes his performance even more astonishing. His last gasp tackle on Tuilagi was from the top drawer. The thing is, this was still a little short on what he can offer. I'm stupidly excited about how good this young man can become.

Toby Faletau - 7 : Overall, a solid game from the youngster. As always he went through alot of work, especially during the 10min spell where Wales were down to 14. Still think there's much, much more to come from him, but we've gotta remember that this is his first 6nations, so hopefully it will come with a little time.

Mike Phillips - 6 : A mixed bag from Phillips. He was poor in some aspects of the game, which wasn't helped by what I still feel was the ref allowing England to slow the ball down at the rucks. I thought he was great during the sin-binning though, exactly the kind of scrum-half you want when up against it and a man down. The image of him throwing Cole off his back just before the penalty was awarded to Wales sticks in my mind, looked like a man possesed. Still much to improve upon.

Rhys Priestland - 3 : His worst performance in a Welsh shirt. Made the wrong decisions at cruicial times when he tried to run out of his own 22 on a couple of occasions and got caught. Was poor defensively, getting bulldozed on numerous occasions by Tuilagi. His charge down was unforgivable, if he'd just looked up quickly, he could have easily stepped Botha before putting in the kick. His Yellow was cynical, but acceptable to prevent a try. I thought the way Gatland handled the situation was top notch, because Priestland upped his game in the last 10min.

George North - 7 : Drops a point for running the ball into touch after a restart. Started extremely well, and I would have backed him to score if Strettle hadn't tapped him. Shuddering hit on Farrell aswell. Was very quiet in the seond-half, but the lack of quick ball killed his opportunities.

Jamie Roberts - 5 : Tough day at the office for Roberts. I wonder how early he was injured, because he didn't seem himself. Out-muscled for once by the impressive Tuilagi (I bet Roberts it dying to get another shot at him), and couldn't get into the game. Went off at half time.

Jon Davies - 8 : Yet another strong showing from Davies who's really grown into international rugby. He was at his best during the sin binning period where he forced a penalty (although the ref did miss a knock-on), and made a good break.

Alex Cuthbert - 5 : Very quiet from the big lad. Not really much to say. Was a bit dissapointed with his defense on occasion aswell, getting shrugged off by Tuilagi once or twice, a man his size should be able to tackle anyone.

Leigh Halfpenny - 9 : Imo Halfpenny pushed Warburton close for man of the match. He was everywhere, and put his body on the line throughout this test. His positioning was faultless, and the way he just get's back up after getting smashed in tackles is astonishing. This is one very hard chap. His final tackle on Strettle may have been an ugly one, but the work he did to simply get into that position was phenomenal, and he did just enough to slow Strettle down so that Davies could wrap him up. He is quickly developing into one of the best fullbacks in the NH, if not the world.

Ryan Jones - 8 : Ryan made a massive impact after coming on. We probably wouldn't have won this game without his contributions. He finally managed to make headway over the gainline, and set-up what should have been the winning try for Scott Williams a few mins before the actual winning try. It's gonna be a tough decision for Gatland whether or not Ryan starts against Italy.

Scott Williams - 7 : It's tough to score Williams. He had a huge impact on the game. He showed he's got the physicality to go along with his obvious ability. On the one hand, he butchered a certain try with Davies and North outside of him, but then scored a try out of nothing to win the game. I'm just chuffed to bits for him, even if I also think Beck deserves a shot this 6 nations.

Advantage was taken when we went over the line, so we definitely shouldn't have gone back for the penalty, BUT, George North rolled the ball back with his arm/hand, after the questionable grounding. Strettle was tackled and held, therefore a ruck had formed. George North came in from the side (penalty offence 1) and then handled the ball in the Ruck (penalty offence 2) so regardless of whether it was a try or not we should have had a new penalty awarded.

The same rules don't apply when on or over the try-line though.

 

[psychic duck]

Ashton is so stupid to move to Saracens, England are basically playing their game plan and he has hardly got the ball can't see there being any difference when he plays in black and red shirt with the same centre combination, playing outside Foden was good for him but I think he will muck his career up moving to Saracens

 

[cyRil]

Ashley Beck - this season's Lou Reed, eh Dull?

 

[psychic duck]

I agree with you Dullonien, I rate Beck highly, did you see the impact he made off the bench for the Ospreys against Ulster on Friday? phenomenal and nearly won them the game with a 50 metre break

I reckon he would have given the pass on that first opportunity Scott Williams mucked up

 

[cyRil]

Do you think he's ready for the step up to international level? I'm not sure. He may have made the pass that Scott Williams didn't, but I think he would have been found wanting in other areas of the game. I think he's worth a spot on the bench against Italy though, with Williams and Davies 12 & 13.

 

[Draggs]

Scott Williams and Jonathan Davies doesn't really seem like an international centre pairing.
Don't get me wrong I like/love Scott Williams, but I think right now he suits the game once it has broken down, something not likely to be seen against France. I would be very tempted to start Beck against Italy, as he was apparently very close to starting against Ireland. I really want to see Harry Robinson have a shot, but you can't drop George North, and I think Alex Cuthbert is a pretty decent player. Hook on the bench again, give him 20-30 minutes at 10 to make a case.

Just have to say it here, Ian Evans is incredible. To come through years of injuries and surgeries and then play three 80 minute matches (four including Aus) is something else. He has been making hits even near the end of the match, and giving it everything. What a player!

 

[dullonien]

Ashley Beck - this season's Lou Reed, eh Dull?

,|,,

 

[psychic duck]

Do you think he's ready for the step up to international level? I'm not sure. He may have made the pass that Scott Williams didn't, but I think he would have been found wanting in other areas of the game. I think he's worth a spot on the bench against Italy though, with Williams and Davies 12 & 13.

yes! he has just as much experience at regional level as Scott Williams, so if you think Williams is ready then Beck is ready too, to be honest I rate Beck higher than Williams

Just have to say it here, Ian Evans is incredible. To come through years of injuries and surgeries and then play three 80 minute matches (four including Aus) is something else. He has been making hits even near the end of the match, and giving it everything. What a player!

he's hardly just come back from injuries, he has been fit since 2010 but was initially a bench warmer (the Ospreys played Jon Thomas lock for that season), then started more the next season but looked sub par and not at his best but this season he has struck back to form a great lineout option and good in the tight as well

I would start him now even if Bradley Davies and Charteris were available

 

[Draggs]

Whatever, from 2008 to 2010 he was almost constantly injured. He had a few small ones in 2011 as well, but had made it back into the Welsh squad. (Through injuries to others, but his performance right now merits selection).
I never would have guessed it would have been him that made the charge into the 22 that set up North to score v Ireland. Ian Evans is a better carrying option than Charteris, and was a very athletic player before his injuries (See his debut try v Argentina). I don't think he can recapture that form, but if we have one of Evans/Jones and one of Davies/Charteris, that would be a pretty good pairing.