[RWC2023 QF3] England vs Fiji (15/10/2023)

[TRF_Olyy]

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[ncurd]

Think the thread ***le need fixing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't know what you mean

 

[Half Pint]

There could be quite a lot riding on the team announcement this week. Given the volume of dissent in the press and on the forums, I think that if Steve Borthwick picks the same 10 & 12 to play in the Q-final, or even if he puts multiple other players out of position (Earl, Smith, Marchant) , it could quite possibly be his *last game* in charge of England.
We all knew that he's not the greatest innovator, but doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different outcome is a textbook definition of insanity.

 

[IT157]

England win a lot more comfortably than most English fans believe they will. English fans continue to ***** and moan especially due to Farrell playing and because of the kicking tactics.

 

[IT157]

There could be quite a lot riding on the team announcement this week. Given the volume of dissent in the press and on the forums, I think that if Steve Borthwick picks the same 10 & 12 to play in the Q-final, or even if he puts multiple other players out of position (Earl, Smith, Marchant) , it could quite possibly be his *last game* in charge of England.
We all knew that he's not the greatest innovator, but doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different outcome is a textbook definition of insanity.

England will get to the semis and Borthwick will be safe. This years 6 nations and World Cup warm up games were absolute gash. My only hope was that he was playing his cards really close to his chest for the World Cup, and they were doing some rope-a-dope tactic in preparation for the World Cup. I'm actually starting to believe that more and more.

 

[HamJan]

There could be quite a lot riding on the team announcement this week. Given the volume of dissent in the press and on the forums, I think that if Steve Borthwick picks the same 10 & 12 to play in the Q-final, or even if he puts multiple other players out of position (Earl, Smith, Marchant) , it could quite possibly be his *last game* in charge of England.
We all knew that he's not the greatest innovator, but doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different outcome is a textbook definition of insanity.

Not a chance of Borthwick getting pushed. The RFU have invested too much money in him and Sweeney will spin it that, after many seasons under performing, we finished top of our group and narrowly lost the quarter final. Borthwick will be given two years to meet a number of KPIs and if he doesn't meet them, only then he will be given the chance to 'pursue other interests'.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

My only hope was that he was playing his cards really close to his chest for the World Cup, and they were doing some rope-a-dope tactic in preparation for the World Cup. I'm actually starting to believe that more and more.

When does he start showing his hand?

 

[IT157]

When does he start showing his hand?

He already did partially against Argentina. Forced a bit due to being reduced to 14 men.

And then the semis after we comfortably beat Fiji in the quarters.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not a chance of Borthwick getting pushed. The RFU have invested too much money in him and Sweeney will spin it that, after many seasons under performing, we finished top of our group and narrowly lost the quarter final. Borthwick will be given two years to meet a number of KPIs and if he doesn't meet them, only then he will be given the chance to 'pursue other interests'.

The RFU Council is revolting which could signal the end of Sweeney and the current leadership. If that happens all bets are off.

Lose this game and the heat will be right on. I expect us to win, with no great style, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if the team's not back at Heathrow this time next week.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

England will get to the semis and Borthwick will be safe. This years 6 nations and World Cup warm up games were absolute gash. My only hope was that he was playing his cards really close to his chest for the World Cup, and they were doing some rope-a-dope tactic in preparation for the World Cup. I'm actually starting to believe that more and more.

When has this ever been true? Hiding specific tactics doesn't require being **** at the basics. At some point things need to be tested against real opposition. I don't buy it at all. We look **** because our tactics are ****.

 

[BPM]

Agreed. We seem barely able to string phases together. Watching the skills on display from Portugal last night (as just the most recent example) puts us to shame.

I do believe that our players are a lot better than they've shown so far, but let's not pretend it's all some kind of deliberate rope-a-dope strategy.

 

[IT157]

When has this ever been true? Hiding specific tactics doesn't require being **** at the basics. At some point things need to be tested against real opposition. I don't buy it at all. We look **** because our tactics are ****.

Not showing your full hand before the World Cup is pretty much what most tier one teams do. Teams save certain plays for certain opposition. They don't show their full hand.

I do agree that our basics have been off, and some of the performances have been lacklustre so far. But we've done what we've needed to do get to the quarters. I expect a fairly comfortable win against Fiji. Our tactics will probably not be enough against the semi-final opponents though who are further along in their development as a team.

 

[Half Pint]

Yeah, I can easily imagine France holding back on some clever innovative plays, but you can see that even still their execution is second to none. Whereas if the England team are keeping stuff in their locker, then it's clearly stuff like *passing the ball* and *catching the ball* and *not falling over*. Hardly enough to make me think that Borthwick is a tactical genius.

 

[die_mole]

Not showing your full hand before the World Cup is pretty much what most tier one teams do. Teams save certain plays for certain opposition. They don't show their full hand.

I do agree that our basics have been off, and some of the performances have been lacklustre so far. But we've done what we've needed to do get to the quarters. I expect a fairly comfortable win against Fiji. Our tactics will probably not be enough against the semi-final opponents though who are further along in their development as a team.

they may have a couple set pieces that they'll show for the first time in the knockouts but they aren't going go breakout a new attacking structure. Maybe England are going to introduce a new kick chase for the knockouts or something?

England need to focus on making the third pass off of rucks more than introducing anything fancy.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not showing your full hand before the World Cup is pretty much what most tier one teams do. Teams save certain plays for certain opposition. They don't show their full hand.

I do agree that our basics have been off, and some of the performances have been lacklustre so far. But we've done what we've needed to do get to the quarters. I expect a fairly comfortable win against Fiji. Our tactics will probably not be enough against the semi-final opponents though who are further along in their development as a team.

They may hold back certain specific tactics but they don't hold back the entire gameplan. That stuff needs to be tested in fire. Ireland, France, New Zealand and South Africa almost certainly have stuff they have kept hidden and yet they do the basics extremely well. A side simply doesn't go from fumbling everything to pulling off a world beating gameplan. A side that is sandbagging would look uninspiring but would still be very accurate and control the game, they wouldn't start making stupid mistakes, they would simply be playing a very basic game.

It's not a case of we've done what needed to be done, 3 of those teams we have never lost to ever. Beating them is the bare minimum to be expected and that alone practically guaranteed us a place in the quarter final. Winning games that literally every other England side in history has been able to win should really not be the sort of yardstick we should be measuring ourselves against. Scraping our worst ever win against Samoa is not a case of just doing enough, it's a case of very nearly ******* up a game that every other England team that have faced Samoa have won with relative ease, even when playing **** poor. I'm not sure you are really grasping just how far below the average England performance we are currently at... For perspective, our worst ever winning margin against Samoa previously was 13. That has now been reduced to 1 with a very real chance we could have lost.

 

[HamJan]

The RFU Council is revolting which could signal the end of Sweeney and the current leadership. If that happens all bets are off.

Lose this game and the heat will be right on. I expect us to win, with no great style, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if the team's not back at Heathrow this time next week.

Fair point, but even if we lose next week Borthwick won't be pushed. I'm really interested to see who he selects for his first 6N squad in January, ie who he keeps from the RWC and who else he sees as the players to take us forward.

 

[IT157]

They may hold back certain specific tactics but they don't hold back the entire gameplan. That stuff needs to be tested in fire. Ireland, France, New Zealand and South Africa almost certainly have stuff they have kept hidden and yet they do the basics extremely well. A side simply doesn't go from fumbling everything to pulling off a world beating gameplan. A side that is sandbagging would look uninspiring but would still be very accurate and control the game, they wouldn't start making stupid mistakes, they would simply be playing a very basic game.

It's not a case of we've done what needed to be done, 3 of those teams we have never lost to ever. Beating them is the bare minimum to be expected and that alone practically guaranteed us a place in the quarter final. Winning games that literally every other England side in history has been able to win should really not be the sort of yardstick we should be measuring ourselves against. Scraping our worst ever win against Samoa is not a case of just doing enough, it's a case of very nearly ******* up a game that every other England team that have faced Samoa have won with relative ease, even when playing **** poor. I'm not sure you are really grasping just how far below the average England performance we are currently at...

Out of the group games only the Samoa game was really below par. I already said in this very thread the 6 nations and warm up games were awful! Even the great 2003 team was not firing on all cylinders btw. We were behind at half time against Samoa in that World Cup as well.... And before some Robinson magic we were not looking too good against Wales. Of course I'm not saying this team is anywhere as good as the 2003 team. But teams do stutter. And actually this group stage we performed well enough in 3 out of the 4 games.

You already forgotten about the game against Argentina?

Japan are underrated, and I thought we did a solid job on them.

Chili of course we were expected to beat comfortably although it took a while for us to get going.

And I already said I would like our basics to be a lot better overall!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

When does he start showing his hand?

Borthwick is a bit like Trump. He plays 5d chess while everyone else is desperately trying to get their head around checkers. You can't outwit him, obviously.

 

[dirty harry]

Borthwick is a bit like Trump. He plays 5d chess while everyone else is desperately trying to get their head around checkers. You can't outwit him.

Is Borthwick going to make English rugby great again?