[RWC2023 Bronze Final] Argentina vs England (27/10/2023)

[BrokenWing]

Ben Kay just said Lawes is the complete rugby player and one of England's best ball carriers!!! What utter ********!! Ive never seen a big guy such a poor ball carrier.

Watch recent Vunipola

 

[Geordie]

Sorry but no, what would be positive is a 10 at 10, a rounded 15 at 15 a 12 at 12, wingers on the wings, some depth and experience given to a hooker and not to keep kicking for the sake of it especially in and around the opposition 22, I can accept if we simply don't have the players especially at prop but Christ give yourself a chance elsewhere.

Well Farrell was at 10, manu at 12 and The back 3 is a lottery anyway these days...full backs and wins just interchange.

So only Smith not really in a position he'd be comfortable with.

 

[IT157]

So when other teams kick and win it's great tactics.

But when we do it is ****.

 

[Grizwald]

I'm not feeling the positivity of some others. Our defence is still leaky as ****, we still concede more tries than we score. Our discipline still isn't great, our team selections are baffling, our use of the bench of non-sensical and our attack I think without any real exaggeration is worse than many tier 2 teams.

Despite our 3rd place, I've never known an English side this ****. We could be walking into the next 6N and losing to Italy and getting the wooden spoon for the first time ever in the 6N. We've got 1 guy coming in as an assistant who looks like he could be the real deal but what about the rest?

Player wise, I think only Earl and maybe Ludlam are the only players with an England future to come out with credit. Lawes did well but is retiring. Farrell, Vunipola, Sinckler, Steward in particular are now in debt and yet I think only Vunipola is going to lose his place.

Think Curry has come out with Credit too. Need to sort the midfield out, shame Marchant is going to France zi think he's a quality player.

 

[Geordie]

Kelly and Seb Atkinson will likely be in contention for the 12 spot in the 6n.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Honestly this WC is a very positive one for this England team. Pre WC terrible. We've won every game apart from the defending champions who we lost by 1 point. So came 3rd this WC and theres not really anyone who could say we dont deserve it.

But the most important thing os that we have seen real progress(ofcourse not in attack)but everythong else.

A very good platform to build on.

I can. And I doubt I'm alone. We're there because of the draw, no other reason. At the most optimistic we're 5th best.

One good performance where the circumstances suited us - Arg.

Two jobs done but so whats in Jap and Chi.

One shocker v Sam.

One bang average which we nearly chucked away v Fij.

One very brave, but very limited performance v RSA. Conditions suited us, at least until the bench emptied.

Total meh in Arg, the Sequel.

So not a total car crash, but not exactly salivating at the prospect of the 6N either.

Plus the team will now break up over the next 18 months anyway. At a minimum Lawes, Youngs and May gone, Marchant and J Willis unavailable. Cole and Care both 36 will almost certainly be done too plus several more around the 32 mark who even if they don't go of their own volition won't be getting any better. Talented youngsters bring opportunities but also problems as Dan neatly showed tonight.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Think Curry has come out with Credit too. Need to sort the midfield out, shame Marchant is going to France zi think he's a quality player.

I don't think so, I don't think his reputation post WC is better than it was pre WC.

 

[BrokenWing]

So when other teams kick and win it's great tactics.

But when we do it is ****.

No, when teams kick well it's great tactics. Most of our kicks are aimless punts that are easily fielded.

Like today when given penalty advantage and Youngs just immediately swings his leg at the ball rather than actually looking around.

 

[Scotty]

The tactic of pointlessly kicking away possession on the opposition 22 never allowing yourself to build any pressure forcing your team to make excessive tackles which is probably a contributing factor to blowing at the end and hanging in there, this doesn't sound like a tactical master class to me.

Yes kicking it in the 22 is fustrating but it stems from the attack issues, but kicking territory and inviting them to attack in their half is a tactic that works. Our lack of attack could have been our downfall ofcourse but we used what we had.

 

[TopTen2003]

Really well done to the playing group to have the tournament they have after that chastening summer series.

Lots of refreshing of the environment and group to come- huge challenge for Borthwick to mould a less experienced group but let's see how we go

 

[IT157]

No, when teams kick well it's great tactics. Most of our kicks are aimless punts that are easily fielded.

All other teams do aimless punts as well.... Yes, including South Africa and New Zealand.

Classic example of confirmation bias by some England fans.

 

[BrokenWing]

All other teams do aimless punts as well.... Yes, including South Africa and New Zealand.

Classic example of confirmation bias by some England fans.

I'm not talking about a bad kick here and there.

And I bet New Zealand don't butcher many overlaps by punting the ball away.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

All other teams do aimless punts as well.... Yes, including South Africa and New Zealand.

Classic example of confirmation bias by some England fans.

Or classic example of red rose tinted glasses by some who think that scraping a win means you played flawlessly all game

 

[IT157]

Or classic example of red rose tinted glasses by some who think that scraping a win means you played flawlessly all game

No one has said that.

I specifically said after the game that a lot of work needs to be done in attack.

 

[IT157]

I'm not talking about a bad kick here and there.

And I bet New Zealand don't butcher many overlaps by punting the ball away.

Most of the kicks England do are actually good.

I actually would like us to be more creative. Especially when we have a free hit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Most of the kicks England do are actually good

I honestly don't see how anyone can watch us play and come to that conclusion

 

[Scotty]

We didn't actually play a territory game, we just kept kicking up and unders. If we had played a territory game and kicked them round the park then I'd be happy but we didn't.

Just to note, England consistent kicking has lost one game and nearly lost another. We didn't win by anything other than luck today. That was not a well orchestrated plan at all. I also don't think we defended well, we fell off a lot of tackles again but maybe that because the players are tired of constantly defending and chasing kicks.

I've seen nothing worthy of more than a 5th place 6 nations finish. We scraped past a really poor Argentina team by 3 points.

Lost 1 game? We lost by 1 point and were arguably the better team.

We kicked alot an played in the right areas of the field, Argentina had a better attack than use but we did defend well. Saying it was just luck is abit harsh.

Improve our attack and refine the rest and we will have a strong team.

I just dont agree with you on this that its all doom and gloom and we were terrible.

I ask again what exactly would you have suggested we had done tactics wise?

 

[Horacito]

Lost 1 game? We lost by 1 point and were arguably the better team.

We kicked alot an played in the right areas of the field, Argentina had a better attack than use but we did defend well. Saying it was just luck is abit harsh.

Improve our attack and refine the rest and we will have a strong team.

I just dont agree with you on this that its all doom and gloom and we were terrible.

I ask again what exactly would you have suggested we had done tactics wise?

you were better than SA? Come on, come on, they played you

 

[Jimbo]

Well Farrell was at 10, manu at 12 and The back 3 is a lottery anyway these days...full backs and wins just interchange.

So only Smith not really in a position he'd be comfortable with.

Well that's not really true is it, Ford comes on and Faz shifted to IC, the slowest FB in world rugby on the wing, I was also referring to a general pattern not solely based on this game.

 

[Rinkadink]

The number of his drug dealer would be sufficient at first.

Only if he does on tick as betting against England hasn't been kind this tournament.

You have to give some credit to Borthwick and co... Whilst I have many gripes regarding use of substitutions, overall selection, attacking structure and the like, England are definitely performing something a little more like a team now and have deservedly come away with something tangible. Well done.