South African Government wants to enforce Quota system - AGAIN!!!

[j'nuh]

The sad thing is I've debated at length with individuals who claim that white people , and particularly white men cannot be the victims of racism or sexism.
Of course they were ****ing university educated femminists coming from an upper middle class backround, gifted a top quality education and yet people are coming out of universities with such ridiculous opinions.

The world is ****ed. The wave of ultra liberal Political correctness will geld us all.

They can be victims of racism, but this isn't one of those cases.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

White men can't jump

 

[Peat]

They can be victims of racism, but this isn't one of those cases.

Being denied employment opportunities because of your ethnicity isn't racist? :huh:

*goes to fetch the popcorn* This could be interesting...

 

[dasNdanger]

Okay...let me try to make some sense of this...

According to the 2011 census, Blacks make up 79.2% of the population, with those who consider themselves Coloured making up an additional 8.9%, Asians 2.5%, Unspecified 0.5%, and Whites 8.9%.

If SA rugby is going to survive they MUST do something to bring more black players into the sport (and with the black players will eventually come the black fans). If they don't, then the sport will always be viewed by the majority of South Africans as a white sport, and as the white population in SA continues to decline (down from 22% of the population a hundred years ago), so will interest in the game.

I totally get it. They are starting out at the lower levels, trying to grow interest in the game among the younger generations. They have a huge task ahead of them - they are competing with football - but rugby does have some advantages. IF - IF they promote the game as a status symbol much like the middle and lower classes worldwide view certain types of jewelry, autos, phones, haircuts, clothing - you name it - as symbols of affluence and success (even when they are not in possession of such), then interest in the game might catch on among the masses. And tapping into the whole World Rugby 'building character' angle can also be a motivator among those who want to prove that they have what it takes to play the game.

It will take a good advertising campaign, both nationwide and locally, 'selling' the sport to schools, youth groups, and social organizations. It will take money, too, to help the aforementioned get the gear necessary to play the game.

I don't see this as a threat to white players; the demographics of the country show the pool for white players is dwindling. If rugby is to survive in the country, then steps must be taken to grow interest in the game in other ethnic pools, and since the largest of those is that of the Black population, it only makes sense to strive to tap into that. And soon. Very soon. Otherwise in a few decades you won't have enough white players to make a front row, let alone an entire team.

Will it affect the team? Sure. There are going to be some bumps along the way, maybe even some setbacks. Most white players have practically been born into the sport, with their fathers and grandfathers showing them the way. This is going to be a new ballgame for black players - literally. It's not football, that's for sure. Rugby is more demanding in many ways, requiring strong bodies as well as fast legs, and - and I'm not sure if this is an issue - but it also requires a lot of physical contact with other men, something some youths might have trouble adjusting to. (Side thought - I've always thought this might be a problem with growing rugby in the US because most men here are not the huggy-touchy types, so the idea of rolling around on the ground with a bunch of guys is something the 'sensitive' English do, but NOT Americans...lol...)

Bottom line for me is this - it can be done, and it must be done. White players and fans may not be thrilled with the idea, but they also need to face the fact that without drawing more black players (and hopefully black fans along with them) into the game, rugby will die a lingering and painful death in South Africa.


das

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

You should tell those people to do a bit of research in Black Economic Empowerment (BEE). It is something that is crippling our economy. The foundation of this system is to give better incentives to people who are not White Males.

2009 I attended an 'exam' as part of an application for a job as a plan examiner as the work wasn't coming in and I was newly married and struggling. I finished first knowing I had all but 1 answer right and when I looked it up I saw I guessed the 1 right. I was the only white guy invited to take the exam. I put in my paper and there was a colored chap finished and we got into the lift together and talked a bit. I could tell he had done well too. It doesn't feel lekker knowing you have no chance of a job if another guy is close to you because you are white. Worse I later found out they invited a white guy only as a means of comparison and they'd rather redo the applications than hire me if they didn't find someone non-white. I kept on as a sole proprietor and have been earning more than double I would have for 2 years now but not everyone is that lucky and you don't need a lot to start up in my field. It's just a **** feeling.

They can be victims of racism, but this isn't one of those cases.

Jhuh?

 

[nickdnz]

Anyone who has read the book Catch 22 will know exactly what SARU and the government has done.

Every day and night the pilots stare with hatred at a 'bomb line' on a map - hoping that it is raised so that the Bologna mission (which is basically a suicidal one) will be cancelled. Clevinger notes to the main character Yossarian how illogical the men are, in that even if the bomb line is moved up, the mission won't be cancelled as the line doesn't indicate anything other than when the mission has been successful. In the middle of the night Yossarian sneaks out, moves the bomb line up and the mission is cancelled the following morning - with medals being awarded to the only general who has the nerve to accept the medal. The point of this story is the total confusion of cause and effect, and how people simply are willing to overlook it.

The problem with black players not embracing the game as much has more to do with the institutional failures at promoting the game in black committees and areas, and providing significant support at the grass roots. Enforcing black player quotas at elite level is not only racist, its illogical. Saying "look, half our national team is black, haven't we done well" is no different from moving a bomb line up on a mission map, and deeming the mission a success.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Okay...let me try to make some sense of this...

According to the 2011 census, Blacks make up 79.2% of the population, with those who consider themselves Coloured making up an additional 8.9%, Asians 2.5%, Unspecified 0.5%, and Whites 8.9%.

If SA rugby is going to survive they MUST do something to bring more black players into the sport (and with the black players will eventually come the black fans). If they don't, then the sport will always be viewed by the majority of South Africans as a white sport, and as the white population in SA continues to decline (down from 22% of the population a hundred years ago), so will interest in the game.

I totally get it. They are starting out at the lower levels, trying to grow interest in the game among the younger generations. They have a huge task ahead of them - they are competing with football - but rugby does have some advantages. IF - IF they promote the game as a status symbol much like the middle and lower classes worldwide view certain types of jewelry, autos, phones, haircuts, clothing - you name it - as symbols of affluence and success (even when they are not in possession of such), then interest in the game might catch on among the masses. And tapping into the whole World Rugby 'building character' angle can also be a motivator among those who want to prove that they have what it takes to play the game.

It will take a good advertising campaign, both nationwide and locally, 'selling' the sport to schools, youth groups, and social organizations. It will take money, too, to help the aforementioned get the gear necessary to play the game.

I don't see this as a threat to white players; the demographics of the country show the pool for white players is dwindling. If rugby is to survive in the country, then steps must be taken to grow interest in the game in other ethnic pools, and since the largest of those is that of the Black population, it only makes sense to strive to tap into that. And soon. Very soon. Otherwise in a few decades you won't have enough white players to make a front row, let alone an entire team.

Will it affect the team? Sure. There are going to be some bumps along the way, maybe even some setbacks. Most white players have practically been born into the sport, with their fathers and grandfathers showing them the way. This is going to be a new ballgame for black players - literally. It's not football, that's for sure. Rugby is more demanding in many ways, requiring strong bodies as well as fast legs, and - and I'm not sure if this is an issue - but it also requires a lot of physical contact with other men, something some youths might have trouble adjusting to. (Side thought - I've always thought this might be a problem with growing rugby in the US because most men here are not the huggy-touchy types, so the idea of rolling around on the ground with a bunch of guys is something the 'sensitive' English do, but NOT Americans...lol...)

Bottom line for me is this - it can be done, and it must be done. White players and fans may not be thrilled with the idea, but they also need to face the fact that without drawing more black players (and hopefully black fans along with them) into the game, rugby will die a lingering and painful death in South Africa.


das

Why must millions upon millions be paid to artificially attempt to grow a sport rather than address real issues? I can assure you if rugby dies in SA it'll be because of this.

SA rugby is doing just fine picking the best players. Best way to bring in fans is to be successful IMO. I'll ask you, is the NFL seen as a black sport in the US because teh best players are black? Does the fact that 90% of players are black discourage white viewers? Same here. There are tons of black fans of a majority white Bok team. There are tons of white fans of black players- Habana, Beast and Vermeulen are my favorite players. 2 of them are 'black' (our government actually counts neither as Habana is mixed race and Beast was born in Zimbabwe) and both of them are there on merit. More will come naturally. Being token-ized is actually a salp in the face of those black players, both those deserving and those who don't. Its simply an injustice to everyone concerned. Simple as that.

The white population is up by ~400% from a hundred years ago and is actually currently the biggest gainer %-wise currently (factors include white expats returning and an increasing birth rate which I find quite interesting). The reason the stats might show a decreasing white population is due to the fact that from a 100 years to now the black population has increased 2500% vs thew hite increase of 400%- so essentially a 6x bigger growth through a combination of birth rate and immigration.

 

[dasNdanger]

Why must millions upon millions be paid to artificially attempt to grow a sport rather than address real issues? I can assure you if rugby dies in SA it'll be because of this.

SA rugby is doing just fine picking the best players. Best way to bring in fans is to be successful IMO. I'll ask you, is the NFL seen as a black sport in the US because teh best players are black? Does the fact that 90% of players are black discourage white viewers?

Nope - because most of the quarterbacks (the only players that people really care about - or in some cases, even know about) are white. Despite the number of black players, NFL football still has a very 'white' face.

Same here. There are tons of black fans of a majority white Bok team. There are tons of white fans of black players- Habana, Beast and Vermeulen are my favorite players. 2 of them are 'black' (our government actually counts neither as Habana is mixed race and Beast was born in Zimbabwe) and both of them are there on merit. More will come naturally. Being token-ized is actually a salp in the face of those black players, both those deserving and those who don't. Its simply an injustice to everyone concerned. Simple as that.

The white population is up by ~400% from a hundred years ago and is actually currently the biggest gainer %-wise currently (factors include white expats returning and an increasing birth rate which I find quite interesting). The reason the stats might show a decreasing white population is due to the fact that from a 100 years to now the black population has increased 2500% vs thew hite increase of 400%- so essentially a 6x bigger growth through a combination of birth rate and immigration.

I think that perhaps they haven't said things the right way, but from the little I know about this it simply seems to me that they want to get more of the black population involved in the game. There was a time when black players struggled to find their place (and acceptance) in Baseball, but eventually it happened. It's still not a 'black' game, but it does have black fans (baseball is probably one of the most racially diverse sports in this country, with black, white, asian and latino players all having good representation in the sport).

And I don't think SA rugby is trying to create a 'black' game. They are trying to develop a more diverse player base for a sport that has traditionally been identified with white domination. It seems there are still stigmas in SA that make it hard for some black citizens to warm to the game, and maybe even some prejudices that still keep blacks out of the locker room (I can't say that for sure, but just knowing how hard it's been for white people in the US to accept black people - even after decades of equality - I can only assume that old prejudices are hard to die in SA, too).

It may not be the perfect way to go about it - just like busing black kids to white schools in the US caused all sorts of outrage - but it may be the only way to finally make rugby a South African game, and not just a white game.

Again, I don't live there and many of you do, but as an outsider looking in this is how I interpret what the powers that be in SA rugby are trying to achieve. It's been 20 years since that infamous RWC and interest in rugby may not be growing as fast as it was expected to among the black populace, so they see a need to give it a little nudge.

Honestly they would have been better served if they just did it without saying anything about it - then no one would have bucked at the idea, and all would have been thrilled to see a more diverse team in 5-10 years. As it is, any black player who makes it through the ranks and ends up a Springbok will be labeled a 'token', which is a shame, so in that I can agree that it's an injustice...but people will only think that because the plan was revealed. Had the plan silently gone into effect no one would have had such cynical thoughts.


das

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm sorry, Das, I just don't see the need for a government to interfere in a sport and demand that it be representative of the demographic of the nation and actually spending money on it.

You seem to say this makes sense. Lets take the US as an example. If we are to apply the same rule then the US (according to 2010 stas) is 72,5% 'white' and 12,5% 'black'. According to the best data I could quickly find the NFL with players sorted by race: 27,5% white and 68% 'black'. Now the US government is saying; "the NFL is not representative of the national demographic and we have to force 50% of representation to be white to get closer to the reality". Lunacy stays lunacy.

I can accept racial quotas in the work place as I can accept that despite my being a kid when Apartheid ended my father had the benefit and it translated to me having the benefit even though it feels **** being discriminated against. I don't see it as fair and I can give my reasons why but i accept it as I feel we can come together as 1 nation and long term a society with equality is just better even if we have make sacrifices- though I do feel we are going about it the wrong way and shortsightedly. But not something like sport. It's like meddling with food and saying black people don't eat enough biltong and we must have 50% of whites not eat biltong so that more black people can eat biltong. We must open government sponsored biltong outlets in the townships. They probably won't eat the biltong in any case because they don't want too.

Black players have ample opportunity to play rugby. Most of them just don't care too and probably specifically don't want too. Not that rugby is inferior to soccer, not that rugby is a white sport, just that they know soccer better and prefer it. There are more non-white rugby fans in SA than white and I can assure you the majority of them would prefer success over transformation. And I assure you meddling will not lead to success. The amount of black players playing for the Bokke has increased naturally on merit. It will probably continue to do so naturally if you look at the national demographic. Looking past the 2015 RWC players like Seabelo Senatla will probably replace Habana and Nizaam Carr will replace Duane Vermeulen and no-one will bat an eye as these guys would have earned their spot. And I disagree when you say it wouldn't have been apparent if they didn't announce it. Rugby isn't a game of stats but it's pretty apparent who the better players are.

I'd have gne with saying we want black players to get the benefit of the doubt when players are close to being even or close to being what the coach wants in a specific position but a hardline % quota is just going to derail the team there can be no arguments.

 

[Peat]

I'm not on the spot, I'm relying on the internet, I might be wrong - but saying that the SARU is doing this because they wish to grow the game among the whole community seems wilfully blind. It is happening because they are coming under pressure from the Government and South Africa's government do not care whether rugby thrives or dies, they care about putting South African blacks into positions of prominence. In doing so, they have put SARU at risk of legal action and a ban from international rugby.

South African rugby is doing well apart from an awful exchange rate making it difficult for them to keep their best players (quotas would heighten that). There is no clear and present danger to the game, save the lingering threat of being chucked out of international rugby again. There is no clear rationale for their actions from a sporting point of view.

 

[valley commando]

RACISM! This is racism against whites. We live in a hypocritical world. If racism is against blacks, then everyone makes a boycott against SA but is racism against whites, nobody does anything, it's right to discriminate against whites for this hypocritical world.

Sport can't be addressed through political advertising, this is only intended to say. "Look, our best athletes are black. We (Blacks) are better than whites." This is RIDICULOUS, top athletes are obtained through the merit and not the stupid sports quota.

South African rugby has my support. It's one of the few sports where South Africa is a world power, the whole rugby world will respect and admire the SA rugby players, with these stupid quotas only hurt the South African sport. All for wanting to see a full team of blacks, if whites are better than blacks in rugby, isn't the fault of the Boers.



Boers must be independent, but isn't the solution. Do you know what will happen? If whites make their own country in Cape Town (Somewhat unlikely) in a few years will have a massive black immigration.

I feel for South African rugby if these quotas are enforced. Could just imagine the outcry if UK enforced a majority white teams.

- - - Updated - - -

The sad thing is I've debated at length with individuals who claim that white people , and particularly white men cannot be the victims of racism or sexism.
Of course they were ****ing university educated femminists coming from an upper middle class backround, gifted a top quality education and yet people are coming out of universities with such ridiculous opinions.

The world is ****ed. The wave of ultra liberal Political correctness will geld us all.

You are spot on. Further to your well founded comments have you noticed how education has been dumbed down year after year so a degree these days is about as difficult as the 11 plus was in the late 60's early 70's

 

[ncurd]

You are spot on. Further to your well founded comments have you noticed how education has been dumbed down year after year so a degree these days is about as difficult as the 11 plus was in the late 60's early 70's

Is everything that comes out your mouth utter tosh?

 

[valley commando]

Is everything that comes out your mouth utter tosh?

Your obviously some wet behind the ears kid trying to wind me up, probably one of these recent graduates that has not got a clue about the real world like a teacher or social worker.

 

[TommiG88]

Your obviously some wet behind the ears kid trying to wind me up, probably one of these recent graduates that has not got a clue about the real world like a teacher or social worker.

You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[valley commando]

You're embarrassing yourself.

Based on what ?

 

[TommiG88]

Based on what ?

Based on your last couple of posts, you're out of touch or just being plain ridiculous on purpose. Your perception on education these days is a joke. There are more youngsters with degrees due to the fact there are a lot more degrees appealing/available to different people. The same old school degrees are still just as hard, get the "in my day" specs off.

 

[valley commando]

Based on what ?

Successive governments over the past 30 years have encouraged more and more children to go to university, why? its just another way of keeping unemployment figures down, up until the early 80's only a small number left school to go to university, now it seems a right that doesn't have to be earned and degrees in the most ridiculous subjects have sprung up, I won't bother to list to many but try baking technology management, digital and social media, ethical hacking and contemporary circus and physical performance. Yes these are real degree courses hard to believe maybe but these 4 examples are amongst many inane subjects or ways to waste 2 to 3 years of your life.

 

[TommiG88]

Successive governments over the past 30 years have encouraged more and more children to go to university, why? its just another way of keeping unemployment figures down, up until the early 80's only a small number left school to go to university, now it seems a right that doesn't have to be earned and degrees in the most ridiculous subjects have sprung up, I won't bother to list to many but try baking technology management, digital and social media, ethical hacking and contemporary circus and physical performance. Yes these are real degree courses hard to believe maybe but these 4 examples are amongst many inane subjects or ways to waste 2 to 3 years of your life.

Now that's a better post and I totally agree with you.

 

[valley commando]

Based on your last couple of posts, you're out of touch or just being plain ridiculous on purpose. Your perception on education these days is a joke. There are more youngsters with degrees due to the fact there are a lot more degrees appealing/available to different people. The same old school degrees are still just as hard, get the "in my day" specs off.

Education these days is a joke, 7 of the last 8 graduates my company took on had got very little grasp of mental arithmetic, poor people skills and bad grammar together with poor work ethics 1 out of 8, 12.5% what a waste of time and money, they were soon shown the door.
The other thing that springs to mind is that between the wars kids left school at 13 years old and were deemed ready for the work place, after the 2nd world war school leavers were 15, by the late 60s 16.
Now education regularly continues until early 20's and beyond, the average degree course could easily be completed in a couple of terms.

 

[TommiG88]

Yes, the issue is that companies want people with degrees when there are a lot who have decided not to and are far better for a job. It swings in roundabouts, there are many useless degrees, and I had many friends get masters in said degrees.