[2014 EOYT] England vs South Africa

[SomeOke]

I don't really know what to think, the team we played against Ireland was one (fairly negligible) change away from the side that beat the All Blacks.
I'm very torn, on the one hand I think Cobus did well in an attacking sense with 1 or 2 nice box kicks and his distribution was better, he picked out Willie for the JPP try, on the other hand he is a bit of a defensive liability. It's not just being turned by Sexton, his Super Rugby figures are not great.
In the end I'd probably rather have Reinach than the player Hougard was this weekend by miles, but I'm hopeful Hougard can come right, although even then the only area where he really has Reinach beaten out and out is in defense but maybe that's what you need for these kinds of games.

I'd like to see Hendricks stay in, filling our back line with good defensive players over their more attacking alternatives just makes me cringe, even if it might be the right option. I don't think HM will make too many changes personally and I won't be too disappointed with that, bad games happen we have to bounce back.

 

[TheSaffycen]

@HenryChinaski
Barritt did miss tackles, got bumped off a couple as well and that's not acceptable. He is there because he is such a good defender, and if he isn't making the tackles then is Joseph the guy to be there ? He will add a bit more attack and if he also gets bumped off then maybe you gain in other areas. Now look you made this about our centres again :angry:
I think we need to pick one 8. Vunipola is effective but he is very one dimensional and if you get 2 guys on him then he gets stopped. Morgan adds a bit more with ball in hand passing wise but if we can't get over the gainline then we need someone like Billy. Against South Africa
Marler/Hartley/Brookes Attwood/Kruis Haskell or Ewers/Robshaw/Morgan

 

[goodNumber10]

@HenryChinaski
Barritt did miss tackles, got bumped off a couple as well and that's not acceptable. He is there because he is such a good defender, and if he isn't making the tackles then is Joseph the guy to be there ? He will add a bit more attack and if he also gets bumped off then maybe you gain in other areas. Now look you made this about our centres again :angry:
I think we need to pick one 8. Vunipola is effective but he is very one dimensional and if you get 2 guys on him then he gets stopped. Morgan adds a bit more with ball in hand passing wise but if we can't get over the gainline then we need someone like Billy. Against South Africa
Marler/Hartley/Brookes Attwood/Kruis Haskell or Ewers/Robshaw/Morgan

How many tackles did BB miss? I saw him get bumped by Savea, but how many actual tackles did he fall off, and what was their outcome?

 

[TheSaffycen]

How many tackles did BB miss? I saw him get bumped by Savea, but how many actual tackles did he fall off, and what was their outcome?

Espn scrum has him on 14/3 but in the 13 channel I guess if they moved inwards then it's a good tackle. Also Kruis made 13 tackles and missed none, decision making though.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Espn scrum has him on 14/3 but in the 13 channel I guess if they moved inwards then it's a good tackle. Also Kruis made 13 tackles and missed none, decision making though.

Good point - Kruis technically didn't miss a tackle but he did something much worse and more significant than BB's missed ones when he sold us short by coming out the line. 7 pointer. Regarding Barritt, his missed ones were towards the middle of the pitch and not massively costly but even a solid tackle that stops momentum can make a big difference.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm surprised to see Lawes named, I would have thought being forced from the pitch with a concussion would mean a mandatory stand down of a week or two.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

In the place of JDV yes!! Jan IMHO was outstanding against Ireland and got us over the advantage line quite a few times.

I'd agree with this, SA's centres could do with a change. Serfontein was the only player to make a line break before Le Roux at the end iirc and he looked far more comfortable throughout the game than JDV. I'd also call for a change to the back-row but I understand that there's injuries there and not familiar enough with your backrow options after Burger but neither him nor Mohoje made the desired impact for South Africa. Apart from that I don't think SA, barring Hougaard, were that bad against Ireland considering the pressure they were under in these pretty vital areas of a game even Handre Pollard had some really classy touches despite being on the back foot all day and I'd back him against any 10 who isn't in NZ's squad or isn't Johnny Sexton at the moment.

I think SA will bounce back, it's been a while since England beat them and I think it will remain that way.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'd agree with this, SA's centres could do with a change. Serfontein was the only player to make a line break before Le Roux at the end iirc and he looked far more comfortable throughout the game than JDV. I'd also call for a change to the back-row but I understand that there's injuries there and not familiar enough with your backrow options after Burger but neither him nor Mohoje made the desired impact for South Africa. Apart from that I don't think SA, barring Hougaard, were that bad against Ireland considering the pressure they were under in these pretty vital areas of a game even Handre Pollard had some really classy touches despite being on the back foot all day and I'd back him against any 10 who isn't in NZ's squad or isn't Johnny Sexton at the moment.

I think SA will bounce back, it's been a while since England beat them and I think it will remain that way.

Exactly this.

The Boks will definitely play better than against Ireland. This was the first time that HM got his wish in that the contracted SA players couldn't play in the Currie Cup after the RC. most of the team basically had a rest period of about 3 weeks, and doing drills will only get you that far.

Ireland pressured us immensely, and our rustiness just made it worse as we couldn't round off our attacks. if I were to make changes to the Bok team. I would make 2 changes:

I'd bring in Jaco Kriel in the place of Mohoje, and maybe swap Marcel Coetzee and Kriel around so that Kriel plays at 6. And then I'd remove JDV and bring in someone like JPP, or Lambie. JDV has been a pedestrian for the Boks the last few games. Sure he gives good speeches after the game, but we need more from our Captain.

 

[Peat]

I'm surprised to see Lawes named, I would have thought being forced from the pitch with a concussion would mean a mandatory stand down of a week or two.

No mandatory stand downs - its all about beating your set cognitive performance indicators (that no rugby player ever has deliberately underperformed on) - but I'm very uneasy about seeing him named. Obviously I'm not the doctor here but it doesn't feel like the game's taking concussion as seriously as it says it does and having seen a number of players have to take extended periods out of the game due to picking up a number of head knocks in quick succession, I'd be happier if he wasn't playing.

 

[Icemn]

this will not be a game... it will be a shame...

 

[Big Ewis]

mmm I don't think that was rust the other day in Dooblin for the Boks, they were just playing together some weeks ago. Ireland hasn't played since those formality events in Argentina, and that was even 4-5 months ago and England since down in NZ over the summer and they both still showed up very well, England did play well it's just NZ that were that good, it's not like England missed their game.
If anything, we know the Boks are a confidence team: they'll go down well in a game only to score 20 points in the last 15min to rise up and win. They're up and down. Maybe the win against the Blacks was too sweet in that TRC finale, not that they took Ireland lightly, they were definitely committed. They were just outbreakdowned which I warn you all will now be a standard expression on these boards.

England were utterly disappointed last weekend, despite, again, a fine effort. And South Africa must be absolutely gutted. This is the redeem match for both, but there can only be one redeemed side (well unless there's a damn draw, making this post all that much less dramatic).
ANYTHING can happen, though. Playing hard isn't everything and doesn't guarantee a win, in fact it doesn't even guarantee staying close. Another thunderous start from England, May's try like, and those could be in for a happy day with the home crowd and momentum. It really doesn't take much sometimes between two extremely intense sides, and the tides can turn in the blink of an egg.

P.S.: oh and I'm reminded just now...wasn't it hilarious how the Irish guy kept calling the guy Mohojo ? "Look at that fellar, why, he's just the average MohoJoe."

 

[TRF_heineken]

mmm I don't think that was rust the other day in Dooblin for the Boks, they were just playing together some weeks ago. Ireland hasn't played since those formality events in Argentina, and that was even 4-5 months ago and England since down in NZ over the summer and they both still showed up very well, England did play well it's just NZ that were that good, it's not like England missed their game.
If anything, we know the Boks are a confidence team: they'll go down well in a game only to score 20 points in the last 15min to rise up and win. They're up and down. Maybe the win against the Blacks was too sweet in that TRC finale, not that they took Ireland lightly, they were definitely committed. They were just outbreakdowned which I warn you all will now be a standard expression on these boards.

England were utterly disappointed last weekend, despite, again, a fine effort. And South Africa must be absolutely gutted. This is the redeem match for both, but there can only be one redeemed side (well unless there's a damn draw, making this post all that much less dramatic).
ANYTHING can happen, though. Playing hard isn't everything and doesn't guarantee a win, in fact it doesn't even guarantee staying close. Another thunderous start from England, May's try like, and those could be in for a happy day with the home crowd and momentum. It really doesn't take much sometimes between two extremely intense sides, and the tides can turn in the blink of an egg.

You are missing the point of rustiness and match-readiness.

Ireland's players as well as England and New Zealand's players played the week before, whereas the last time most of the South African players played a match was against the All Blacks, and that was on the 4th of October! In other words they last played a match more than a month ago. Remember the All Blacks and the Wallabies played the 3rd Bledisloe afterwards and then the AB's had a warm-up game against USA and Australia played against the BaaBaas. SA didn't have a prior match to this NH tour, and that is why I mention the rustiness...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

JPP Should start in wing. At the end of the day we have to be honest. We are now playing on heavier fields in the NH and the as much is i would like to see us playing entertaining running rugby, I believe that we should play more tactical rugby against England (go for goal rather than lineout ). Anyone for Jaque Fourie making a return?

In the place of JDV yes!! Jan IMHO was outstanding against Ireland and got us over the advantage line quite a few times.

I'd agree with this, SA's centres could do with a change. Serfontein was the only player to make a line break before Le Roux at the end iirc and he looked far more comfortable throughout the game than JDV. I'd also call for a change to the back-row but I understand that there's injuries there and not familiar enough with your backrow options after Burger but neither him nor Mohoje made the desired impact for South Africa. Apart from that I don't think SA, barring Hougaard, were that bad against Ireland considering the pressure they were under in these pretty vital areas of a game even Handre Pollard had some really classy touches despite being on the back foot all day and I'd back him against any 10 who isn't in NZ's squad or isn't Johnny Sexton at the moment.

I think SA will bounce back, it's been a while since England beat them and I think it will remain that way.

TBH we knew JdV hasn't been on the top of his game going into this tour. That said we don't know what Jaque Fourie offers at this stage so I'll back our captain on this one but mainly because he is our captain. He needs to step it up though, that I can agree with. Serfontein the more physical of the two though giving away kgs to De Villiers. De Allende failed to take his two chances, JdJ and F Steyn are out of the picture. We are stuck with JdV/Serfontein and I would like to see them given a chance to make it right.

I'm surprised Le Roux is getting away with so much though. The most 'hate' has been reserved for Hougaard but I feel Ireland just totally harassed him to his wit's end with our forwads not shileding him enough. Le Roux though, a number of howlers and it's been a downward trend since Wales I. Suppose it's the fact the alternatives at fullback all come with an asterisk next to their names as well.

Exactly this.

The Boks will definitely play better than against Ireland. This was the first time that HM got his wish in that the contracted SA players couldn't play in the Currie Cup after the RC. most of the team basically had a rest period of about 3 weeks, and doing drills will only get you that far.

Ireland pressured us immensely, and our rustiness just made it worse as we couldn't round off our attacks. if I were to make changes to the Bok team. I would make 2 changes:

I'd bring in Jaco Kriel in the place of Mohoje, and maybe swap Marcel Coetzee and Kriel around so that Kriel plays at 6. And then I'd remove JDV and bring in someone like JPP, or Lambie. JDV has been a pedestrian for the Boks the last few games. Sure he gives good speeches after the game, but we need more from our Captain.

Ireland has more cause to claim rustiness than us if we're honest. EDIT; I see your post above and I'd call it match fitness/readiness rather than rustiness as a team, yes. I didn't 100% understand you in your first post. Could be, could be. A slight bit of complacency at the back of their heads after beating te ABs? They'll be the first to say no but the mind is a tricky *****. Not to take anything away from Ireland though. They were up for it, brought it the full 80 and even if we won the set piece, the 'macro battle', they won in the detail; tactically superior, execution and accuracy and where the numbers count; on the score board.

I'd bring in Kriel as well onto the bench ahead of Burger. He's been amazing in the CC and if we don't back our form CC players then the competition counts for very little. Burger hasn't offered anything off the bench since Aus in Cape Town (where he was immense though it has to be said). IMO two strikes and your out. Bring in Kriel. Mohoje I am getting to accept; he was brought in off of nothing, a crazy left field inclusion and I understand where people were calling politics but he held out pretty well, certainly no Alberts or Juan Smith (in top form) but it was a decent shift and a slight step up from Jo'burg ITO work rate although I want to see more so give him another go with Kriel on the bench as specialist cover for open side but a rounded enough player to cover the rest; a young and in form Schalk Burger kinda- perfect bench loosie.

 

[TRF_heineken]

TBH we knew JdV hasn't been on the top of his game going into this tour. That said we don't know what Jaque Fourie offers at this stage so I'll back our captain on this one but mainly because he is our captain. He needs to step it up though, that I can agree with. Serfontein the more physical of the two though giving away kgs to De Villiers. De Allende failed to take his two chances, JdJ and F Steyn are out of the picture. We are stuck with JdV/Serfontein and I would like to see them given a chance to make it right.



Ireland has more cause to claim rustiness than us if we're honest. I'd bring in Kriel as well onto the bench ahead of Burger. He's been amazing in the CC and if we don't back our form CC players then the competition counts for very little. Burger hasn't offered anything off the bench since Aus in Cape Town (where he was immense though it has to be said). IMO two strikes and your out. Bring in Kriel. Mohoje I am getting to accept; he was brought in off of nothing, a crazy left field inclusion and I understand where people were calling politics but he held out pretty well, certainly no Alberts or Juan Smith (in top form) but it was a decent shift and a slight step up from Jo'burg ITO work rate although I want to see more so give him another go with Kriel on the bench as specialist cover for open side but a rounded enough player to cover the rest; a young and in form Schalk Burger kinda- perfect bench loosie.

Mohoje does the basics pretty well, but that's about it. He did steal the first 2 lineouts from Ireland, and made some tackles. But he's no Alberts or Smith as you rightly mentioned.

I just think our pack could do with both Jaco and Marcel at the flanking positions. we will be much better off at the breakdowns, and Jaco is a very potent runner with ball in hand. Just like Schalla... I just think Jaco's ability to pilfer should give him the chance to play.

 

[TheSaffycen]

The guy you want was playing with the BaaBaa's last week

 

[TRF_heineken]

The guy you want was playing with the BaaBaa's last week

Brussouw? Yeah maybe, but Kriel is just like him, but Kriel is a bit bigger and a bit faster than Brussouw...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The guy you want was playing with the BaaBaa's last week

Remember the name Jaco Kriel. I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the bench on Saturday. That is of course assuming Currie Cup form can translate to test rugby which is up for debate certainly. Just a ridiculous work rate. Utterly insane. He is labeled an openside flank but for this season's Currie Cup he has been superb and all I can fall back on is stats where he leads tackle success % (3rd most tackles overall and top of his team; an attack-minded team), top try scorer, top clean breaks, top defenders beaten, 2nd or 3rd most turn overs won. Highest meters run for a non outback, just incredible.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think if anyone will have issues with the ref, it will be England more than SA.

I think the main thing England need is more power at the breakdown. We struggled to punch through NZ because our breakdown work was poor. Yes people could get to the breakdown but they were not that good when they got there. The ABs could slow our ball down whenever they wanted and we were useless at counter rucking and slowing their ball down. I'd like to see Haskell in at 6. Also not keen on Lawes coming back in unless he is absolutely 100%, apart from some error in judgement, Kruis was technically pretty solid and quite powerful. I think we are beginning to suffer without a fetcher to make other sides worry about the breakdown.

Tactical kicking also needs to be improved and if Care and Farrell (or preferably Ford) can't improve then I think we shouldn't do it. We should look to keep possession first and kick last, not kick as a first resort. I think we need Morgan in for Vunipola as he has more to his game whilst Vunipola doesn't seem to have much beyond smashing whoever he is facing, he is too predictable. Barritt did ok but I still want to see the Bath axis of Ford, Eastmond, JJ as I don't feel it is as weak defensively as people claim and offer so much more in attack.

In summary, need much more power at the breakdown and less kicking to beat SA I think.

 

[Patchey]

I think if I could ensure that one changes was made, it would be Morgan for Billy.

I love Billy, but he is too one dimensional. He just smashes, and that's it. When I've seen Bikly play, on TV and live, it always seems that a team with a largish back row and some sense can stop him on the gain line quite easily.

Morgan is a big runner but he picks his lines much better, it cleverer at the base of the scrum and has better positional awareness. Start with Morgan and then bring Billy on when his style of play is more likely to work: against a tired defense.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Less and better kicking.

Yeah Vunipola has been disappointing in all the matches against New Zealand, imo. I storngly believe we should revert to a 6/7 rather than an 8 on the bench. Haskell is an ideal bench option, but that would mean removing Wood outright which won't happen, and someone leapfrogging haskell, which won't happen. The problem is I would rather than Wood starting than on the bench where i believe he is 100% NOT the sort of player we need. I think Launchbury was a bigger loss than we first feared and agree with the people - @Peat - ? who said that our balance really suffered. After all, Launch does as much at the breakdown as Robshaw.

All our Scrummies need lobotomies, basically. Youngs needs two. And give him a new pair of hands.

Apparently Michael Lawes is "symptom-less" and therefore going to be in contention, according to Lancaster. Great news.