[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: England vs. Ireland (27/02/2016)

[j'nuh]

Don't kick Murray in the head. That's what he should have done differently. I'll leave it to the man on the spot to work out the details, but don't kick people in the head.

Feet in the ruck usually don't lead to people getting kicked in the head, just like tackles don't usually lead to spear tackles, so I'm happy to let people continue to use them. But if you're not paying attention to what you're doing and kick someone in the head, you should be banned.

Sam Warburton never meant to put Clerc down on his neck, Jared Payne never meant Alex Goode to land on his head, Chris Ashton probably never meant to stick his fingers in Luke Marshall's eyes; they still got banned because what they did is really dangerous. How is kicking someone in the head less so?

It is not desirable to the game or anyone involved that cards and bans are handed out because of the end result and not the process. Can't argue with a kick to the head resulting in a mandatory citation to determine recklessness or wrongdoing, but if there is no evidence of it, then no ban ought to be handed out.

In Brown's case, if you look not at his feet, but at JvdF, JvdF pushes Brown backwards at the hips as Brown has his leg extended. Seems fairly natural for Brown to kick his leg back in order to right himself. In this case, it is more of an unfortunate incident than any act of recklessness. Furthermore, Brown's first kick connected with the ball but the ball did not move because Murray was holding onto it, which is not allowed per law 15.5b. Murray also pulls the ball back into his body to protect the ball, which is not allowed per law 15.5a. Had Murray not done either of these things, he wouldn't have been hit in the face.

There are enough attempts at kicks in rucks per game, and enough games of rugby, that it is to be expected that some people will get hit in the head. By allowing kicking the ball out of the ruck, you accept that as par for the course. We need to decide whether it happens commonly enough to warrant changing the rules to prevent it. I'm not going to cry if we lose that particular part of the game to be honest.

FYI No mention of Brown's indiscretion in todays or yesterdays Mail. Is there a rule somewhere on this forum that only followers of England and Ireland are allowed to comment on an England Ireland match ? If so I trust you will keep your nose out when England are not involved, alternately you could accept that people have opinions and are free to view them however much any of us disagree after all this is supposed to be a democracy, we aren't under shariah law just yet.

 

[jomjom]

Right. Ive been drinking and thinking (therefore do excuse us if this comes across as pure twaddle)

Not quite sure how much of an authority I have because Ive only been watching rugby for 9 years and playing for 1, and the fact Im Irish, but genuinely trying to be objective as possible I see nothing but recklessness and savagery from Brown. Nothing but unwarranted aggression from Brown which I have seen throughout so many matches. I cant imagine as many players so needlessly and recklessly throwing their feet about in a ruck as I have Brown, exacberated with what seems like a pure scowl on his face. Maybe Im just blinded by how much I dislike him as a person and not a player, I dunno, but in any case, I understand that rugby is a physical game but there absolutely must be boundaries that are set and protocols in place for players to not get their face mauled to bits when rucking.

Also, although a moot point, but its something Ive wanted to say for a while because I dont actually know any English rugby heads in real life to say it to, but with regards to "English arrogance"... Its not that Celts/we (I?) revel in the commiserations and sadness of English rugby supporters when they lose. I dont take joy in watching individual English people demise at their teams loss because theyre "arrogant". Its more so because English sporting institutions are directly linked to Englands colonial legacy - said sporting institutions (including rugger) promoted the ideas and notions of Anglo-Saxon superiority and these sports were a medium of exporting that. The notions of "stepping up to the cause" and "taking one for Britain" are explicitly linked to the British (ie English) military and the sports ("civilization") exported by soldiers, who are the main reason English sports are played abroad. So in that sense it's nice to see the formerly colonized and oppressed rise up and tear down that colonial legacy... ya know!?

I know its got nothing to do with your average English sports fan. I genuinely like most of the English rugby team and want to see them do well, but yeah... I never want them to win the slam.

All that said, England thoroughly deserved this win and are looking the most confident with regards to a championship win and a slam and hats off to them if that happens.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So in that sense it's nice to see the formerly colonized and oppressed rise up and tear down that colonial legacy... ya know!?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Maybe Im just blinded by how much I dislike him as a person and not a player, I dunno,

I think that probably accounts for a lot of it...

I understand that rugby is a physical game but there absolutely must be boundaries that are set and protocols in place for players to not get their face mauled to bits when rucking.

Why do you think one of the first drills that young players are taught involves presenting the ball (no holding onto it) and protecting the head?

 

[Saint4805]

Right. Ive been drinking

Schoolboy error. Like dangling a worm in front of a bunch of piranhas

 

[Maverick1987]

If that happens the press would be all over it graphic pictures included, did you check the press today, hardly a mention they are so one eyed with their English bias, the same press that come Olympics will report on English athlete wins gold, if the athlete was from Wales, NI, or Scotland they would report British athlete.
Thank God for the Western Mail for a bit of balance.
So the citing officer bottled it, should have given him 6 weeks in my opinion and were it a French or Celt they would have received a ban. However for me I'm glad Brown is playing, he will get wound up and sooner or later will get carded (red with any justice). Alternately he will get the slapping his churlish attitude demands, there's nothing worse than an irritating back trying to act like a macho forward.

If he were French or a Celt like when Healy stamped on Coles ankle a couple of seasons ago . Was far clearer if you ask me and received nothing . I know your posts are full of biased crap when you state the western mail is unbiased .....

If that were a Welshman you would be saying the same as the rest of us English . As a matter of fact if that exact situation was simply the opposite way round and Murray kicked Brown you would have a different view . Typical bloody Welsh !

In other news Castro has been cited for stamping . I'm so glad because if someone was to get away with kicking or stamping on the field then they should definitely be cited ......
http://www.skysports.com/share/10186864

 

[munstermuffin]

Didn't read through here much as was in Italy but just on game England were deserving and better team a lot more than score reflected.
On the Irish team I'm surprised we took off Ryan and Stander as I thought they were 2 of our better forwards. Ryan tackled like a demon. I thought our 2 new caps that started did well but VDF needs to put on more weight as he looked light in defence. How did it take Dillane so long to be capped as he's been like that all season.

On Brown incident.
It was fair game he was in his rights. Yes it was unfortunate but Brown was within his rights

 

[Tony Manx]

Didn't read through here much as was in Italy but just on game England were deserving and better team a lot more than score reflected.
On the Irish team I'm surprised we took off Ryan and Stander as I thought they were 2 of our better forwards. Ryan tackled like a demon. I thought our 2 new caps that started did well but VDF needs to put on more weight as he looked light in defence. How did it take Dillane so long to be capped as he's been like that all season.

On Brown incident.
It was fair game he was in his rights. Yes it was unfortunate but Brown was within his rights

Yet again MM shows his maturity, honesty and sportsmanship!

This bloody Brown incident is now just plain boring! It is over so move on to something else in your lives!!

 

[Peat]

It is not desirable to the game or anyone involved that cards and bans are handed out because of the end result and not the process. Can't argue with a kick to the head resulting in a mandatory citation to determine recklessness or wrongdoing, but if there is no evidence of it, then no ban ought to be handed out.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one for three reasons.

1) Should the law suit come asking a union for all of its cash due to injury or death caused by concussion, I don't want the prosecution to be able to point to multiple examples of people getting kicked in the head with no sanction. The sub-clause here is I don't want any more serious injuries or deaths caused by concussion. I can think of two deaths in recent times. Rugby's a dangerous sport and should remain so... but the key word there is sport.

2) It is my belief the game is already there and that consistent application of said has not harmed the game. I see no difference between punishing someone for a kick to the head and for a spear tackle; both presumably unintentional, both actions that start legal, but recklessly become dangerous; the end result of the tackle results in cards if dangerous, so why not the end result of fly-hacking at the ball?

3) If someone got kicked in the head, there was wrongdoing and recklessness. For me, that's a fact. I accept not everyone shares that but I'm not going to change my mind on that.

There are enough attempts at kicks in rucks per game, and enough games of rugby, that it is to be expected that some people will get hit in the head. By allowing kicking the ball out of the ruck, you accept that as par for the course. We need to decide whether it happens commonly enough to warrant changing the rules to prevent it. I'm not going to cry if we lose that particular part of the game to be honest.

Virtually every facet of the game comes with an attached danger that, due to repetition of the facet, the danger can be expected. Tackles will lead to broken necks, aerial challenges ditto, scrummages ditto... and so on.

So far, rugby has decided to allow those facets to continue but to penalise people who make them dangerous, regardless of intention. Surely that's the obvious way to handle rucks as well?

 

[johnmac99]

"So far, rugby has decided to allow those facets to continue but to penalise people who make them dangerous, regardless of intention. Surely that's the obvious way to handle rucks as well?"

Who made the ruck dangerous in this case? Was it the player following the rules and kicking the ball on the floor, or was it the player who illegally went off his feet and handled the ball illegally in the ruck and deliberately tried to prevent the kicking of the ball by illegally pulling the ball into his body thus placing himself in danger?

As I've already said in the case of a spear tackle the player getting tackled is doing nothing illegal but the tackler is the one breaking the rules.
Brown did nothing wrong but Murray did on several counts, put himself in danger and unfortunately got accidentally kicked on the head.

 

[spartan32]

Read a lot of what has already been said and I think it may boil down to this.

Brown, by the letter of the law did nothing wrong.
Murray by the letter of the law did, and he got a knock for it (which in my day was how the game was played. By all means chance your luck but expect a kicking for doing it)

Now if people don't like it they should appeal to the law makers to change the laws, but until that happens there is no issue.

If you remove all risk to players handling the ball on the floor then the only viable alternative will be automatic yellows for doing it, otherwise players will just slow the game down and professional foul all over he place with no real risk to themselves of their team.

 

[munstermuffin]

Read a lot of what has already been said and I think it may boil down to this.

Brown, by the letter of the law did nothing wrong.
Murray by the letter of the law did, and he got a knock for it (which in my day was how the game was played. By all means chance your luck but expect a kicking for doing it)

Now if people don't like it they should appeal to the law makers to change the laws, but until that happens there is no issue.

If you remove all risk to players handling the ball on the floor then the only viable alternative will be automatic yellows for doing it, otherwise players will just slow the game down and professional foul all over he place with no real risk to themselves of their team.

By the letter of law Brown was within his rights. If you want to find fault as stated it's with the law and not Brown. Your correct there.
If it was an Irish player I'd be more upset if they didn't claw for every break like Brown did. These guys go out and it is a genuine battle. Brown wanted to win it and was within his rights.
It reminds me a few years ago and Neil Back was asked about HEC 2002 final. He was asked what was the reaction he got any time he met a Munster fan and his response was "Great because they're similar to Leicester. They want to win and understand you have to be ruthless and not have any sympathy or heart for the opposition during that 80 mins." And I know it's separate in a way but logic is similar you test the rules to limit and can't be thinking softly. Having watched replays the issue was Murray didn't place the ball back in the full narrow stance he should've and then pulled it slightly back towards him to guard it a bit. So he took a chance too trying to do best for his team and unfortunately got a nick for it.

 

[Wimero]

So the ref saw it, didn't punish, the Tom saw it didn't recommend punishment and the citing commissioner isn't punishing. Hopefully that can put it to bed . It clearly wasn't a punishable offence. Done.

Was there ever any doubt?

+1

 

[RedruthRFC]

Hurray for an outbreak of reason! I do have some sympathy for the view that the laws could legislate better for a potentially dangerous are of the game, but obviously all the match officials and citing officer can do is apply them. Having checked the list of things that players can be cited for, I am at a loss to see what Brown could have been charged with. The mention stamping and trampling, but I don't see that either of those adjectives could be applied to what Brown did. You could argue that his actions were unsporting, but as rucking is part of the sport, that seems like a stretch to me.

 

[Peat]

"So far, rugby has decided to allow those facets to continue but to penalise people who make them dangerous, regardless of intention. Surely that's the obvious way to handle rucks as well?"

Who made the ruck dangerous in this case? Was it the player following the rules and kicking the ball on the floor, or was it the player who illegally went off his feet and handled the ball illegally in the ruck and deliberately tried to prevent the kicking of the ball by illegally pulling the ball into his body thus placing himself in danger?

As I've already said in the case of a spear tackle the player getting tackled is doing nothing illegal but the tackler is the one breaking the rules.
Brown did nothing wrong but Murray did on several counts, put himself in danger and unfortunately got accidentally kicked on the head.

The guy swinging his boots without due care made it dangerous. Feel free to disagree, but you're not going to change my mind on that, and sooner or later World Rugby's going to have to take the same stance if they want to avoid concussion ruining the game.

p.s.

Letter of the law

10.4 (c) Kicking. A player must not kick an opponent.

Also - of possibly less relevance due to me being unsure quite whether it's intended, although the language seems clear - http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=10&clarlaw=16&clarification=1016&language=EN -

"The designated members agree that it is illegal to kick the ball from the hands of a player in possession in any circumstances."

 

[valley commando]

If he were French or a Celt like when Healy stamped on Coles ankle a couple of seasons ago . Was far clearer if you ask me and received nothing . I know your posts are full of biased crap when you state the western mail is unbiased .....

If that were a Welshman you would be saying the same as the rest of us English . As a matter of fact if that exact situation was simply the opposite way round and Murray kicked Brown you would have a different view . Typical bloody Welsh !

In other news Castro has been cited for stamping . I'm so glad because if someone was to get away with kicking or stamping on the field then they should definitely be cited ......
http://www.skysports.com/share/10186864

I didn't say the Western Mail was unbiased just that they help balance all the biased crap we read in the English press, the Western mail does not pretend to be anything but the national newspaper of Wales.
The Times, Telegraph, Guardian, , Mail, Express, Sun, Mirror etc etc are supposed to represent the Great Britain but are blatantly biased in favour of England when it comes to sport.
Once again you put words into others mouths, if Murray had kicked any England player other than Brown I would have the same view.
Brown is as disliked by me as Stuart I'm a diving cheat Hogg, with Hogg it's his act of diving in the WC, whereas with Brown its his bad attitude. Either way slapping or very late tackles on both of them should be compulsory by opposition players.

 

[Maverick1987]

I didn't say the Western Mail was unbiased just that they help balance all the biased crap we read in the English press, the Western mail does not pretend to be anything but the national newspaper of Wales.
The Times, Telegraph, Guardian, , Mail, Express, Sun, Mirror etc etc are supposed to represent the Great Britain but are blatantly biased in favour of England when it comes to sport.
Once again you put words into others mouths, if Murray had kicked any England player other than Brown I would have the same view.
Brown is as disliked by me as Stuart I'm a diving cheat Hogg, with Hogg it's his act of diving in the WC, whereas with Brown its his bad attitude. Either way slapping or very late tackles on both of them should be compulsory by opposition players.

I'll put it in simple words for you there 30x more people in England than Wales . Newspapers just want to sell as much as possible so talking about England rather than the other smaller nations in Britain will sell papers . It's called supply and demand

Look it up

 

[McTallshort]

No its down to our terrible arrogance and the belief that the world revolves around England....which it does.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

I didn't say the Western Mail was unbiased just that they help balance all the biased crap we read in the English press, the Western mail does not pretend to be anything but the national newspaper of Wales.
The Times, Telegraph, Guardian, , Mail, Express, Sun, Mirror etc etc are supposed to represent the Great Britain but are blatantly biased in favour of England when it comes to sport.
Once again you put words into others mouths, if Murray had kicked any England player other than Brown I would have the same view.
Brown is as disliked by me as Stuart I'm a diving cheat Hogg, with Hogg it's his act of diving in the WC, whereas with Brown its his bad attitude. Either way slapping or very late tackles on both of them should be compulsory by opposition players.

Oh you do drag on . At least wait until the England vs Wales thread to spew.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

No its down to our terrible arrogance and the belief that the world revolves around England....which it does.

Apparently the English are so arrogant they can't find Wales or Scotland on a map. We are so arrogant that when a Welshman took the throne of England, we just called him English. When a Scot took the throne of England we just called him British. Such arrogance.