[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs France (06/12/20)

[Vieux Talonneur]

As you say the joy of the union cat is that there are many ways to skin it.

I don't want see all or kicking or all running. They're not mutually exclusive and the best teams flex their style within matches as the situation demands.

You can blame refs or caterpillars all you want, but I believe the roots of our current risk aversion lie in the wreckage of the RWC final. I genuinely think Jones carries scars from that.

Ref the analysis and meeting on the Thurs over beers I was being facetious, but only mildly. It is depressing when you just know that what you're seeing on the pitch is pre-ordained by the coach and isn't the players playing what they see. Top leaders in any field empower people, not inhibit them.

 

[FrenchFan]

I'm far from unentertained by rugby at the moment. For me, there's as much pleasure watching a good defence as there is watching a good attack. I love the collisions and the physical contest. And there's nothing unappealing about kicking. Part of the appeal of union over league for me is that there are multiple ways to play the game. At the moment, Eddie's identified a tactic that is the opposition have utterly failed to handle for much of the year, most of our wins have been very comfortable in 2020, but I'm sure this time next year England will be doing something different again. That's the appeal of union. And after so many frustrating years under Robinson, Ashton, Johnson and Lancaster, I'm just chuffed we're winning games regularly again. Carry on, chaps!

You're a purist then, well according to Jones. I don't see Galthie's point of picking backs known for their running ability (Villiere, Thomas, Dulin etc.) and lock them into a kicking strategy. Dulin pointlessly kicked 2/3 of the possession against second division opposition that didn't pressure his team. It was the wrong strategy IMO. There was room for more running given the opposition.

 

[spartan32]

The issue at the moment seems to be that the contest on the ground has become so fiercely contested, and refs so keen to blow the whistle for holding on, that running with ball in hand almost becomes a hazard. If a player makes a great break chances are they become isolated, they then get tackled and a flurry of back rowers crowd around the felled player. They try to hold the defenders off just long enough for support to arrive, but the ref is probably already anticipating a penalty, gives it barely two seconds and the whistle blows and possession is lost. See George Fords break against Wales as a case in point.

Better then to kick it high, let the opposition challenge for the ball in the air, if you lose the ball you bundle them to the ground where you compete hard and with the likes of Curry and Underhill to hand have a fair to middling chance of getting a pen, or you win the ball back with plenty of support to hand and reset with a territorial advantage.

I think we would see the ball moving through hands more if Manu was fit and in the line up, or if we had another equally physical back. But we dont. So it will be kick, chase, compete on ground, pressure in defence, win pens, and bludgeon with forwards. Not pretty, won't win many converts to union, And doesn't make a great TV, but it clearly win games. And that's what Jones cares about. And I suppose, as an England fan, so do I.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

27 retained. Unsurprisingly Barbeary not one of them.

 

[Jashay]

Backs

Elliot Daly (Saracens, 46 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 87 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 71 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 3 caps)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 60 caps)
Dan Robson (Wasps, 6 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 45 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 103 caps)

Forwards

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 25 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 27 caps)
Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 7 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 53 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 42 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 68 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 39 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 7 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 55 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 63 caps)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 2 caps)

 

[Jashay]

Assuming everyone plays in roughly the right position, I don't think you can actually pick a bad pack from that.

For the backs I'd like to see Ford-Farrell-Lawrence midfield. I guess the back three would be May-Watson-Daly, and Ben Youngs will, alas, always start.

 

[Goodey]

Hope Watson is fit enough to start.

I expect to see a repeat of the 6-2 bench which is pretty harsh on Malins, it would be good opportunity for him at home against a sketchy French team.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We gonna see Marchant or Watson on the wing?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

We gonna see Marchant or Watson on the wing?

Ben Earl

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ben Earl

Can he kick though?

What am I saying, kicking skills mean very little - just the ability to hoof it randomly up the other end of the pitch

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Can he kick though?

What am I saying, kicking skills mean very little - just the ability to hoof it randomly up the other end of the pitch

See dombrandt can and does regularly. Automatic selection for me!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Can he kick though?

What am I saying, kicking skills mean very little - just the ability to hoof it randomly up the other end of the pitch

Not even the other end, a solid 10m will suffice.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

You can blame refs or caterpillars all you want, but I believe the roots of our current risk aversion lie in the wreckage of the RWC final. I genuinely think Jones carries scars from that.

I'd be interested to know exactly what you mean by this. What scars cause this aversion? Do you mean because SA have now won three WCs by playing in the same conservative way?

 

[BiggusLaddus]

It could be as simple as us having an established defence coach and a very new attack coach, so due to Covid interruptions we've decided to be excellent in defence and meh in attack rather than mediocre at both.

 

[spartan32]

Why is Big Joe not getting a run out? He's been in camp and against a very under strength French side surely it's a great chance for him to have a run? I'd say the same for Thorely. Also Watson should start if fit and get some game time. Would be great to see him in at 15 and Daly taken off the table all together. See what difference that makes.
But who am I kidding. Jones will stick with same old same old. We won't get even a sniff of new talent in the backs and those poor buggers will have to suffice with a few minutes off the bench with the game well won and no time to make any sort of impression at all.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'd be interested to know exactly what you mean by this. What scars cause this aversion? Do you mean because SA have now won three WCs by playing in the same conservative way?

We sometimes get bested up front, but rarely beaten up. On that day we were walloped and I think he's over reacted to that by overly concentrating on the physical and in some respects copying the SA game plan as a blue print to success.

My take on the final was that it was a very bad day at the office primarily down to having played our emotional final the week before. Jones making a couple of selection mistakes and Sinckler getting hurt early just made it a perfect storm.

Watson said in the Times today that there had been issues in training during final week. Unspecified, but something sounds like it was a little off. Maybe something that coach / captain should have stamped down on...we'll have to wait for the books.

A very bad day for sure. But before the final we were showing signs of coming together nicely as a team. Unlike some we have fundamentally the same group of players and it feels that our game has regressed rather than going forward.

Ignore results. Since spectacularly failing in our promise to bully France we have won everything. But these have virtually all been against teams in transition or 2nd tier.

Let's see what we look like when we do eventually play someone with its **** together and not at an embryonic stage of development.

 

[BPM]

Cokanasiga's looked well off the pace since he came back. I think he was called-up more in hope than in expectation.

 

[Jashay]

15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 46 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 45 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (C) (Saracens, 87 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 60 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 71 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 103 caps)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 63 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 53 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 39 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 42 caps)
5. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 68 caps)
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 27 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 55 caps)

FINISHERS

16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 25 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 7 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 7 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 6 caps)
22. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)
23. Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 4 caps)

I guess it's more or less what everyone was expecting, although I was hoping Slade wouldn't start so Lawrence could get a run out. I like the bench, though; I don't feel that we've had a proper look at the back options so Malins and Marchant getting 20 mins is better than nothing

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Pretty much near the best team we can put out. I just hope the subs get a reasonable run out and not completely pointless 5 minute cameos. Would like to see more subs at the 55-60 minute mark.

 

[klitarris]

No surprises there. I guess Malins/Marchant cover more positions than Lawrence but yeah, I'd have liked to see him involved as well. As you suggest, it does feel like this autumn has been a bit of a missed opportunity to try out some new faces in the backs, but tbh it probably wouldn't have been a fair representation of their abilities given the way the matches have been.

There were glimpses from the backs last week so I'm hopeful we see something where attack and defence are a bit better balanced than has been the case. The hysteria over this issue in the last week has been interesting.