EOYT: France vs Samoa, 24/11/2012

[Big Ewis]

Okay srsly now, can we PLEASE HAVE THE vBOOKIE HERE ?!!...

Yes I agree, glad to finally see more than just 2 French posters...

I have a bad feeling about that game...
First we know we're inconsistent, as said in a previous post this is a fact.
Second, Samoa makes me think about Argentina in that most of their players have experience through playing into big championships, some even in Top 14 so they know the french players very well. Also they arrive overconfident following unexpected wins - sorry guys you're a good side but the odds were stil not in your favour for both games.

Finally if the rain is confirmed there's another hardened fact: France completely loses control when playing under the rain. Would we play against Wales, England or Ireland we would get "up-and-undered" as if there was no tomorrow and lose control of the ball "a-la-Poitrenaud"

Fortunately Samoa prefers holding the ball so we'll see what will happen, but I rate this match as highly unpredictable.

well "we're inconsistent" is a relative thing of course, we have to understand that intelligently. We've won 9 Grand Slams haven't we ? We'd crushed (almost) every team in every single RWC pool until Argentina in 2007. We made the Final 3 times out of 7 RWC. So it's a relative thing.
Not EVERY side EVERY year is inconsistent for France, and PSA and his players seeing what Samoa did to Wales is a blessing for us.

A team like England would never underestimate any side, because defeat is like DYING for them. That's their mindset, their temperament. They're pragmatic enough, in a sense, to avoid embarassment.
But French rugby is like French temperament in general: we know we're really good so we don't take certain things seriously.
Sides like NZ or England just have that, that, even though they're great sides, they play like they have something to prove every single time, like they're beggars on the street, desperate for a win.

But PSA will have prepared his team all too well, and like I said, that victory in Wales is like a big warning to France, saying: "guys, you've got to play this like it's a top3 SH team...no fooling around again, ok ?!"


EDIT:
I'd like to add a few things also: one thing I'm actually concerned with is this: Samoa, Bringer of injuries. Pac. Islanders are complete savages to be honest, and last time out in 2009 one of them decapitated Vincent Clerc. We're going to HAVE to lose a few players during this...so I'm happy it's the last match of the Tour.

The other thing is: sure, Samoa comes into this with zero pressure - literally ZERO pressure. They've got this unique luxury no one has...that they've already won 2 on the road in impressive fashion, so wtvr happens they'll be praised everywhere in the world - whether they lose this or not.
Any Tier 1 side would lose a lot of reputation over a defeat in France, but Samoa is expected to lose. So if they win, it's even more bonus money on the side; if they lose, no problem you tried your best Samoa at least you got Canada huge and even Wales, 2 out of 3, excellent tour.
ZERO...****ING....PRESSURE.

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

I have a bad feeling about that game...
First we know we're inconsistent, as said in a previous post this is a fact.
Second, Samoa makes me think about Argentina in that most of their players have experience through playing into big championships, some even in Top 14 so they know the french players very well. Also they arrive overconfident following unexpected wins - sorry guys you're a good side but the odds were stil not in your favour for both games.

Finally if the rain is confirmed there's another hardened fact: France completely loses control when playing under the rain. Would we play against Wales, England or Ireland we would get "up-and-undered" as if there was no tomorrow and lose control of the ball "a-la-Poitrenaud"

Fortunately Samoa prefers holding the ball so we'll see what will happen, but I rate this match as highly unpredictable.

Were they underdogs going in against Canada? I though they were the favourites to win that game. I dont know though.

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

I got linx if anybody's interested...

And I'm loving how all of a sudden (well not really all of a sudden !) EEEEVERYBODY who ain't French is vociferously against France !...
We're not cocky ! We're not a vain team or vain fans !! How the fk do we attract hate, some other nations I could seriously see why objectively, but wtfffff ! :lol:

Hilarious !! It's like the most systematic thing since the dawn of Man !...

Not sure if youre serious.

 

[jaunard06]

Were they underdogs going in against Canada? I though they were the favourites to win that game. I dont know though.

You're right, I made a confusion with the Tonga vs Scotland match, I thought it was Samoa instead of Tonga...

 

[jaunard06]

But French rugby is like French temperament in general: we know we're really good so we don't take certain things seriously.

Well, my point is that we 're not that good in a regular fashion. I don't believe players and coach are not taking things seriously, but that we sometimes lack composure or tactical flair or concentration or simply muscles or endurance.

We lack composure when playing in unusual weather conditions for example.
We lack tactical flair from my point of view since the 2003 World Cup. If you look at our halves - especially fly half - they were certainly far from world class in 2007 and 2011 from that perspective. Galthier/Michalak was a really good one, but since then...
During the previous match against Ozzies where we've been raped during the 2nd half that was clearly a lack of endurance: we were not used to such a rate of actual play - Top 14 games especially are more often paused, the ball doesn't remain in play for a long time, and here the SH teams clearly get an edge on any NH nation I believe for their ability to sustain much longer playing sequences.

 

[phildange]

Speaking about selection does none of you guys think some good about Clermont 15, Buttin ? Beside Médard, who IMO is one of the last "French" 3/4s and fullbacks ( those who can create a try and a win when nothing's foreboded), I'd appreciate to see him in the France team . I found he too could be a creator, an attacker, but I've been more gladly surprised by Buttin in clubs games . And Dulin did mistakes in his 22s .
I'd like to see him then, but PSA seems to ignore him up to now .

 

[Big Ewis]

yeah, we were actually tied 16 all before they exploded and reached 59...ridiculous display.

But I mean against Tonga for e.g. in RWC 2011.
Surely we felt like "okay, it's the last game of the pool stages, it's Tonga, even Canada got them...let's conserve our strengths for the next round against either England or Argentina". And BAM ! Surprise surprise, Tonga came to PLAY.
England for e.g. would never underestimate anyone and would play each game like it's the last. We've lost to Canada before, and Tonga twice now, and even the UNITED STATES. This isn't normal for France, the 5th rugby nation historically in the world. We just don't push ourselves to the max, I'm not saying we're Gods but we choose to be lazy, but obviously the approach is different from the anglo-saxon type one.

I look at teams like Ireland and England for e.g.: you look at their home records. When you go down to Twickenham or Lansdowne (now Aviva) you better BRING IT. We've had big losses at home. England almost never loses BIG at home. There's just that spirit we don't always have, that they ALWAYS have. Often times we've got better teams even on paper than those two nations, but we get lost in the momentum of the game; the mental toughness, seriousness just isn't there.

 

[phildange]

Yoe, we have not the mind regularity they have in Engerland and sons, it means we can go really down, but also we can go really high .
The stars lightning that made the 1999 SF in Twickers possible wouldn't have been possible for any other team . There was some magic in it, even ball bounces, and an unexpected faith and bravery which created a poetic reality . Like the 1982 WC football team . Or like in 1792/94, when an inexperienced mass of newly republican peasants became able to resist and overcome a coalition of all European kings, when nobody could have foreseen that .
Personally, I prefer the French way of being, there's more fun in it .

 

[jaunard06]

yeah, we were actually tied 16 all before they exploded and reached 59...ridiculous display.
England almost never loses BIG at home.

I believe the worst defeat at home is in 2008 against world champions SA (42-6).
I globally agree with the rest of your statement.

 

[Big Ewis]

Yoe, we have not the mind regularity they have in Engerland and sons, it means we can go really down, but also we can go really high .
The stars lightning that made the 1999 SF in Twickers possible wouldn't have been possible for any other team . There was some magic in it, even ball bounces, and an unexpected faith and bravery which created a poetic reality . Like the 1982 WC football team . Or like in 1792/94, when an inexperienced mass of newly republican peasants became able to resist and overcome a coalition of all European kings, when nobody could have foreseen that .
Personally, I prefer the French way of being, there's more fun in it .

Of course I prefer being French myself too, I really do genuinely...I'm not just saying that. I'd rather have a side that can lose to Tonga, sure it sucks, but then can knock out NZ twice in the RWC in the most unexpected way. Not bragging but can you believe we'd only won ONE little game in the 5N in 99, and come right back to put 43 on NZ in the semi-final ?!! With Lomu on the team ?!!....it's absolutely INSANE.
We've done what NO OTHER TEAM ever could, and without a doubt - and on multiple occasions.

But if I were born English, I'd be happy with the regularity of my nation's side. I'd still see things objectively like "yeah France have a more exciting game...and yeah they can pull off miracles every once in a blue moon...but we won a RWC, we were EXCELLENT for 3 yrs straight (2001-03) and we've got really nice historical records against all teams but NZ and SA".

But I obviously agree, and I don't mean to rub it in to anyone who isn't French reading this; but since it's in debate...it's a very special thing, than to be french...it is...it really is. (in the realm of rugby of course, to stay in topic).

 

[Big Ewis]

I believe the worst defeat at home is in 2008 against world champions SA (42-6).
I globally agree with the rest of your statement.

Yes, I'm a huge stat fan. I love numbers and all. You'll never see England get SMASHED at home. There are many examples of NZ or AUS coming in November to Europe and crushing us, but having more difficulty in Twickenham. They've just got this "DO OR DIE !!" culture we don't regularly have. Of course because we're French, as stated before, we'll pull off victories we shouldn't - but then again other times we get smashed WAY more than we should...
Tied 16-16 at home and seeing the Ozzies reach 60 fakking pts (16-59)...that's not normal for a top5 nation, we ain't fking Spain for fk's sake !! What IS THAT ?!
That's a Tier 2 result.

 

[Surefire]

Too many posts with good points to quote on, so I will just pick and choose.........

Tony Manx: You are right more of us France supporters should post more on the Top14 thread, and I will try to do so!

ZeFrenchy: I agree it would be nice to see Parra start. He is a better pure SH than Machenaud, but reviewing the last game against Argentina, I really liked the tackles and aggression of Machenaud. If Parra starts, I would not be unhappy, and I think Machenaud could handle kicking duties when he fills in.

A lot of posters here talk about the French being inconsistent, however I do not feel that is where the risk lies in this game. Last night I watched the Samoa/Wales game and thought that Samoa has every right to believe they can win this. Not becaus e France will lose it, but because Samoa will beat us by playing a better game. I believe France has more depth and talent, and that will be the difference.

 

[Big Ewis]

since we're right in the middle of the subject (French inconsistency) I'd like to state Wales is just as bad as we are. They've been throughout the pro era...but anyways.

Samoa may bruise their way to victory, it'll be ALL psychology this game because they've got nothing on France in actual substantial terms.
They'll have to disrupt le XV de France somehow mentally for us to lose momentum, rhythm etc...

Like I said, their kickers alone are almost an insult to other national sides. It's like they're gutsy enough to actually show up with those school boots...they get that sorted out, they apply a little more discipline to their game and grey matter (no stupid tackles, no balls just hanging there in breakdown..etc...) - they got a Tier 1 side.
Of course I don't think they'll ever be one (Tier 1 nation).
I think they'll continue every once in a while upsetting the big boys, but won't ever actually be able to play at a really high level in all sectors of the game...I think they'll always be attack-based, hyper-energy RAW. But not the level above that...
I may be wrong, of course.

 

[psychic duck]

since we're right in the middle of the subject (French inconsistency) I'd like to state Wales is just as bad as we are. They've been throughout the pro era...but anyways.

No they are not. Wales have had good patches, and many others not so good, but their form varies in periods not matches. France can play disgustingly one week and then click the next week. See the last two World Cups.

And by the way, I would hate to be a France fan. The most frustrating team in the world, they should have won many more 6 Nations looking at their side on paper, yet their fans have to watch the dull dross that they played during the 6 Nations with Beauxis at 10, and most of the crazy Lievremont era.

Like I said, their kickers alone are almost an insult to other national sides. It's like they're gutsy enough to actually show up with those school boots...they get that sorted out, they apply a little more discipline to their game and grey matter (no stupid tackles, no balls just hanging there in breakdown..etc...) - they got a Tier 1 side.
Of course I don't think they'll ever be one (Tier 1 nation).
I think they'll continue every once in a while upsetting the big boys, but won't ever actually be able to play at a really high level in all sectors of the game...I think they'll always be attack-based, hyper-energy RAW. But not the level above that...
I may be wrong, of course.

Nonsense. For a start, Samoa's first choice kicker James So'oialo (not sure if he's playing this game) is a very fine goal kicker and was excellent in this aspect against Canada. Tusi Pisi is a decent goal kicker, not the world's best, but good enough, he missed a few towards the end of the Wales match last week as he hurt his hamstring.

Also stop this Tier 1 talk. They will be a Tier 1 side if they enter the Rugby Championship or 6 Nations. It's not go to do with them being good enough. They are already better or as good as some Tier 1 sides, but that doesn't mean their Tier 1. Tier 1 is not a certain level you reach, it's an entry into the elite circle of the foundation nations, which only Italy (later than they should have been) and Argentina (later than they should have been) have been allowed entry to. Samoa will never become a Tier 1 nation because they are not anywhere near lucrative enough to join that elite group, regardless of how good their team is.

 

[aucklander]

Nicely said there Psychic Duck - I'm just going to echo this response to YOE91 Comment. I'm not sure if you are hating on the Samoan team or what??

Originally Posted by yoe91
Like I said, their kickers alone are almost an insult to other national sides. It's like they're gutsy enough to actually show up with those school boots...they get that sorted out, they apply a little more discipline to their game and grey matter (no stupid tackles, no balls just hanging there in breakdown..etc...) - they got a Tier 1 side.
Of course I don't think they'll ever be one (Tier 1 nation).
I think they'll continue every once in a while upsetting the big boys, but won't ever actually be able to play at a really high level in all sectors of the game...I think they'll always be attack-based, hyper-energy RAW. But not the level above that...
I may be wrong, of course.



Nonsense. For a start, Samoa's first choice kicker James So'oialo (not sure if he's playing this game) is a very fine goal kicker and was excellent in this aspect against Canada. Tusi Pisi is a decent goal kicker, not the world's best, but good enough, he missed a few towards the end of the Wales match last week as he hurt his hamstring.

Also stop this Tier 1 talk. They will be a Tier 1 side if they enter the Rugby Championship or 6 Nations. It's not go to do with them being good enough. They are already better or as good as some Tier 1 sides, but that doesn't mean their Tier 1. Tier 1 is not a certain level you reach, it's an entry into the elite circle of the foundation nations, which only Italy (later than they should have been) and Argentina (later than they should have been) have been allowed entry to. Samoa will never become a Tier 1 nation because they are not anywhere near lucrative enough to join that elite group, regardless of how good their team is.

 

[Tony Manx]

]The most frustrating INTERNATIONAL team in the world.

I make that correction as there is a club side of my acquaintence that is a more frustrating team..............................

 

[Surefire]

I agree with most of your post, PD, on the Samoa team and Tier 1 conversation. As I stated in my post, if Samoa wins this game it is because they are good enough. I was impressed by their matches, and am really looking forward to this one.

As far as it being difficult in being a France fan, this is part of the allure. It is frustrating, but the moments of sunshine sure make it worth it!

 

[barthelemy]

No they are not. Wales have had good patches, and many others not so good, but their form varies in periods not matches. France can play disgustingly one week and then click the next week. See the last two World Cups.

And by the way, I would hate to be a France fan. The most frustrating team in the world, they should have won many more 6 Nations looking at their side on paper, yet their fans have to watch the dull dross that they played during the 6 Nations with Beauxis at 10, and most of the crazy Lievremont era.

It is very frustrating indeed. But this crazy Lievremont went in RWC final (putting a very nice performance against the blacks in final) and France went twice before in RWC final (99 and 87), always at least in semi-final and just once, eliminated at the level of quarter finals (1991). Just missing the ***le, should come in 2015 . In the last 30 years the french are quite/largely ahead on the 6th nations wins (points, grand slams or victories).

So maybe not so inconsistent after all, looking at the larger picture !

Maybe the welsh supporters had more consistency but not as much pleasure for sure

 

[Surefire]

Not to pile on Welsh Fans, but even if it is frustrating to be a France Fan, at least we can go into a game against the big three SH teams with the expectation that a win is possible. This has not been the case for Welsh Fans in a long, long time.

 

[psychic duck]

Not to pile on Welsh Fans, but even if it is frustrating to be a France Fan, at least we can go into a game against the big three SH teams with the expectation that a win is possible. This has not been the case for Welsh Fans in a long, long time.

You saying that no Welsh fans thought a win was possible against Australia in June?

True, Wales lost all 3 matches closely. But nobody thought a win was impossible, in fact quite the opposite, making it even more frustrating that the team failed to win one. Also don't tell me nobody thought a win was possible against South Africa at the RWC.

Expectation that a win is possible and actually winning are different things.

Also it makes it worse and even more frustrating for France, that a team that beats the All Blacks and thrashes Australia, can also play such dull dross in the 6 Nations, lose to Italy with Mirco Bergamasco missing a dozen kicks, and have to rely on Canada to beat Tonga to get them through to a RWC quarter.