[November Tests 2017 EOYT] England vs. Australia (18/11/2017)

[TRF_heineken]

Venue: Twickenham​

Time: 16:30 CAT (SA, GMT+2)​

 

[galumay]

This game is really a measure of how far the Wobblies have come this season, if they can pull off a win against England, at home, without Folau & Poey, it will be the best season they have had in years. A close loss even, will not be too bad a result, and still the best season in years, (not losing to SA and winning a game against the ABs is already a pretty good outcome.)

My gut feeling is that without Izzy its a bridge too far and I suspect the Wobblies will go down in a close match.

 

[Icemn]

This is going to be a good one...

Jones vs 'Moan-a'-Lisa

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Be interesting to see the makeup of the pack with Maro back, does Robshaw drop to the bench or out of the squad completely? The photos of him packing down at 8 suggests bench.

Presumably Slade drops out completely with Faz back, and Loz keeps his bench spot?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Be interesting to see the makeup of the pack with Maro back, does Robshaw drop to the bench or out of the squad completely? The photos of him packing down at 8 suggests bench.

Presumably Slade drops out completely with Faz back, and Loz keeps his bench spot?

I'm very interested to see whether EJ sticks with Robshaw or adopts the lock at 6 approach. I'm hoping for the latter, I have a huge amount of respect for Robshaw but I feel that he's come to the point in his career where he's crossing the line between workhorse and deadweight. He's hugely credited for his defensive work yet in the Argentina game he made 11 tackles, which for any international flnaker is poor, especially one credited for their work rate. In fact, of the starting pack that puts him behind Mako, Lawes, Kruis and Underhill, and it isn't like the tackles he makes are big hits. Considering he doesn't really offer anything else I'd say that dead weight is a pretty appropriate tag.

 

[curtbob7]

For me, Don Armand has overtaken Chris Robshaw and warrants selection.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

For me, Don Armand has overtaken Chris Robshaw and warrants selection.

Overtaken Robshaw? Yes. Warrants selection? No. Bringing in a 29 year old with only 20 minutes international experience seems unjustified unless their form is significantly better than other, younger and more experienced options, which his is not when compared to players like Lawes, Itoje or even Tom Curry with the option of Underhill at 6. I don't think he should be considered as anything more than injury cover and seeing as he hasn't been selected, EJ seems to agree.

 

[curtbob7]

Overtaken Robshaw? Yes. Warrants selection? No. Bringing in a 29 year old with only 20 minutes international experience seems unjustified unless their form is significantly better than other, younger and more experienced options, which his is not when compared to players like Lawes, Itoje or even Tom Curry with the option of Underhill at 6. I don't think he should be considered as anything more than injury cover and seeing as he hasn't been selected, EJ seems to agree.

Just think hes a better player that's all. Age isn't the issue I mean look at NZ with Kaino, Todd and Read.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

All of whom had a million caps before they were that age

 

[curtbob7]

So we keep playing Robshaw or we chuck in more youth

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd go for minimal changes. We "know" that we went into the match fatigued, we genuinely know that it usually takes an entire AI window to overcome Lions disruption. I also don't think we were as bad as some make out, a couple of silly mistakes from rookies, a little laziness from fatigued front rowers and a little uninventive in attack (which is a coaching issue). Dare I say it, but it looks like the Argentines adapted to this season's law changes better than we did (again, coaching).
I'd further suggest that we underestimated the Argentines, who really should be more coherent than us after an entire QN together, not to mention a few years together at club level, whilst we split for the lions, and split for club rugby and were playing our first match together again, with 3 rookies in there for most of the match


I'm resigned to the idea of Hartley being captain through the RWC, in which case he retains the jersey.
Itoje in for Kruis, they've both been overworked, so get 1 match each this window.
Back row unchanged.

Halfbacks unchanged
Centres are better than that, they get a chance to make amends. Whilst Slade didn't have a good game, I don't want to drop him for 1 performance, and I don't see what Farrell would improve. JJ still holds our defence together, and I'm not going to hold him responsible for our poor attack if he never sees the ball without a tackler arriving at the same time.
Brown's injured, whilst May should be fit, so May to wing, Watson to FB, Roko stays on the bench.


Against Samoa we can add a little more experimenting, George to start Lawes and Launch as a pair, Curry to start, and maybe try 2 from Loz/Slade/Farrell or give Roko a start

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So we keep playing Robshaw or we chuck in more youth

Exactly that,
Robshaw is a great player. Don't see the point in dropping him for Armand.

From what they were saying pre Argentina game Jones wants Itoje and lawes at 4/6, basically ignoring the numbers on their backs.
That's why he's started referring to it as back 5 rather than 2nd row and backrow.

 

[The Jones Boy]

If England can strangle the Wallabies up front then it's going to be a long afternoon for the Aussies.
Particularly with Israel Folau out of the picture.
Aussie don't have great depth, they can ill afford to lose players of world class calibre.
England have blown out the cobwebs and still won a difficult match by putting a shed load of points on the board.turned it on when it mattered during the
My head says England by 11
I feel that Eddie Jones has the hoodoo over Cheika.
When the AB's turned it on when it mattered during the RC, they blew Aussie away like a tumbleweed.
If England can find that kind of cohesion between a dominant firing forward pack and a slick backline, they will do the same.
If the Wallabies can scrap it out up front and get some kind of parity then you cannot count them out. They have very talented speedsters in their backline.
England at Twickenham are always good for a ten point buffer from the home crowd. It's a big ask and as Galumay said, it would be a bigger scalp for Aussie to take the win than the reverse.
Speculation aside, I'll be sure to see this one as it happens. It will be a cracker for sure.
England are a very tough cookie at home.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

The more I think about moving Beale to 12 the less it makes sense. Clearly when Folau's fit he'll move back to 12 so why disrupt the team by shifting him to FB rather than putting Hunt or DHP (if fit) in there? What makes even less sense than that is putting a big uncreative lump in at 12 to replace him. It completely changes the dynamic of the team. Could've just slotted Hunt in there if Cheika really wanted Beale at 15. The decision just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Cheika can be a random bugger.
He's probably trying to keep Jones guessing.
Jones doesn't give a hoot.
He's all over Cheika.

 

[curtbob7]

If England can strangle the Wallabies up front then it's going to be a long afternoon for the Aussies.
Particularly with Israel Folau out of the picture.
Aussie don't have great depth, they can ill afford to lose players of world class calibre.
England have blown out the cobwebs and still won a difficult match by putting a shed load of points on the board.turned it on when it mattered during the
My head says England by 11
I feel that Eddie Jones has the hoodoo over Cheika.
When the AB's turned it on when it mattered during the RC, they blew Aussie away like a tumbleweed.
If England can find that kind of cohesion between a dominant firing forward pack and a slick backline, they will do the same.
If the Wallabies can scrap it out up front and get some kind of parity then you cannot count them out. They have very talented speedsters in their backline.
England at Twickenham are always good for a ten point buffer from the home crowd. It's a big ask and as Galumay said, it would be a bigger scalp for Aussie to take the win than the reverse.
Speculation aside, I'll be sure to see this one as it happens. It will be a cracker for sure.
England are a very tough cookie at home.

Of which, at the moment, we are showing neither.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Exactly that,
Robshaw is a great player. Don't see the point in dropping him for Armand.

Agree on Armand, but in no respect is Robshaw "great". Committed, industrious, brave, a little underrated maybe. But he's not a great player, in fact I don't think there's a single aspect of his game that warrants that tag. His tackle count perhaps, but even there although he makes a lot, they're seldom really impactful; in contrast look at the way Underhill frequently drives opponents back.

That's not to belittle the bloke at all, he's been well worth his shirt in the past and has had a fine career. He'd never let us down, but there are now players around who offer more, perhaps considerably more by Japan. And if Underhill's the future at 7, there's the question of balance; they've both a got a big defensive bias.

 

[Icemn]

Cheika can be a random bugger.
He's probably trying to keep Jones guessing.
Jones doesn't give a hoot.
He's all over Cheika.

This!

Moan-a-Lisa is no match for Jones... its gonna be a good one though... game of the weekend...

 

[TommiG88]

Farrell to be straight back in. So many people under estimate him.

 

[curtbob7]

Farrell to be straight back in. So many people under estimate him.

100%, for Slade or Joseph.