What changes with Eddie Jones

[Maverick1987]

I say interim because I highly doubt Eddie has seen all the players he wants let alone enough of them to decide on a captain . He hasn't even watched Northampton or Leicester yet . I think he'd decided on Hartley before

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Posts merged



Marler has 37 caps, Cole has 52, Lawes has 42 and Launchbury has 28; that's not a tight five with barely any caps at all regardless of who you put at hooker (with Vunipola, Wilson, Parling and Attwood all being deputies with 20 or more caps). Flowerpot Men also have over 20 each plus there's a ton of experience available at blindside.

I'm not going to get too sucked into Hartley arguments until it's confirmed, but the argument that we're so short of experience in the pack that we have to cling to the experienced options at hooker regardless of the quality of the players involved strikes me as a little weak.

Also, I'm really not sure why you think this is merely interim.

Marler should not be starting,

Cole is not guaranteed a place as Brooke's is playing better (but it's a close call)
lawes should not be in the eps until he improves his basics.

If we take out Haskell, wood & robshaw (all 6s) we don't really have much experience at all.

 

[Maverick1987]

Marler should not be starting,

Cole is not guaranteed a place as Brooke's is playing better (but it's a close call)
lawes should not be in the eps until he improves his basics.

If we take out Haskell, wood & robshaw (all 6s) we don't really have much experience at all.

This is what I meant to be honest . Mako has a bit of experience but mostly from the bench same with Brookes . I think most would like Itoje in the pack somewhere who has 0 caps and we are looking for a proper 7 that we don't have a single one with more than 10 caps . Experience is needed and getting it through Hartley seems sensible to me

 

[nickdnz]

It is when they are more or less the only players with any caps in that position and the pack minus Wood, Haskell and Robshaw have barley any caps at all . Although it is the time for change, its not the time for mindlessly dropping every player with a bit of experience for TRFs young team ideas

Also I'm basing my opinion on the fact it's interim until Eddie gets his feet under the table . I'd hazard a guess at Hartley not being captain next 6N if someone can step forward and put their hand up

I want it to be Itoje but I do understand the implications of having such an inexperienced captain ....



There's plenty of players about that have been gritty and been lucky to escape bans . Hell Bakkies would have been banned for half his career if all his stuff didn't have a blind eye turned to it

Bakkies Botha has also captained South Africa as far as I can remember . Correct me if I'm wrong

Andrew Hore is another one who a serious dick on he pitch but a good player and an experienced leader on the field (although not captain for obvious reasons)

Edit: I've double posted can someone put them together for me don't think I can do it on my phone . Thanks

1. I think Bakkies may have been capt for a midweek test or something. With that said I think Bukkies is scum and a terrible choice of captain too.

Hore as far as I can recall really only did one notable on-field offence against Wales. With that said he WAS captain of the Canes - and got booted out of the squad for leading a bad example off the field. Which was my point..

I don't understand what good having an "experienced" captain would do - if his experiences hasn't resulted in him learning anything. It's not like you can rely on him more than any other player...

 

[MojoPin]

I don't understand what good having an "experienced" captain would do - if his experiences hasn't resulted in him learning anything. It's not like you can rely on him more than any other player...

I'd second that sentiment. While obviously I'm a little biased, I have to point to Warburton as Wales captain. Massively inexperienced when he captained Wales at 22, and look at him now - he's grown immeasurably and has already broken the captaincy record with many years of playing left in him. If you're good enough, you're old enough as they say. England have an abundance of talent and for me I don't really see what makes Hartley the ideal candidate.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'd second that sentiment. While obviously I'm a little biased, I have to point to Warburton as Wales captain. Massively inexperienced when he captained Wales at 22, and look at him now - he's grown immeasurably and has already broken the captaincy record with many years of playing left in him. If you're good enough, you're old enough as they say. England have an abundance of talent and for me I don't really see what makes Hartley the ideal candidate.

Yep, but Warburton's captained in around 40 of his 60 tests so was a reasonably established player before becoming captain.

Which of our young guns are even guaranteed first choice, let alone demonstrating any obvious leadership material? Launch is only being spoken about as skip by default as he's one of the very few guaranteed starters. As for Itoje, at the moment we have no idea what his best position is or whether he can cut the international mustard as a player let alone know whether he might be able to lead the senior team. In 2 years time we'll have answers to some of these questions, but right now we don't and I think this is a sensible interim choice.

The experience factor partly comes in with being able to handle all the off field distractions that the captaincy brings. A youngster has quite enough on their plate just concentrating on their game and trying to cement their place.

But if a Warburton or a Carling comes along then great. I'm all in favour of long term stability. But they're rare and it's not a model we should actively seek.

 

[Maverick1987]

I'd second that sentiment. While obviously I'm a little biased, I have to point to Warburton as Wales captain. Massively inexperienced when he captained Wales at 22, and look at him now - he's grown immeasurably and has already broken the captaincy record with many years of playing left in him. If you're good enough, you're old enough as they say. England have an abundance of talent and for me I don't really see what makes Hartley the ideal candidate.

And also ironically Warburton has a worse international disciplinary record than Hartley ....

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think he did a decent job at Saints and he has the international experience. It's a bold move, it may backfire, but as an interim measure I'm not too upset. But realistically, who else?

That is the rub. Launchberry seemed like the obvious choice to me, he's more assured of his shirt than most and will be at or approaching his prime around the next World Cup. However not knowing him personally or having seen / heard very much of him, it's perfectly possible that he lacks the leadership qualities needed from a captain.

My biggest worry about Hartley would be the way he (along with Ashton and Haskell) behaved during the 2011 World Cup. The incident with the hotel maid raises a question over whether he is the sort of person who should be a public figurehead, but more than that, his (and his cohort's) attitude was the antitheses of that of a member of any team. They behaved like spoilt schoolboys who thought that they were somehow better than their team mates, spending their time as a clique away from the rest of the group mocking other players. I say this based on the videos that James Haskell shot during the tournament.

 

[McTallshort]

I'd second that sentiment. While obviously I'm a little biased, I have to point to Warburton as Wales captain. Massively inexperienced when he captained Wales at 22, and look at him now - he's grown immeasurably and has already broken the captaincy record with many years of playing left in him. If you're good enough, you're old enough as they say. England have an abundance of talent and for me I don't really see what makes Hartley the ideal candidate.

It worked for Warburton but the same thing didn't work for Robshaw. Sometimes picking a rookie works other times it doesn't.

Lots of people point to carling and how he was such a success but the circumstances were completely different. When he was made captain England had a massive dominate pack, the team had been underperforming because drinking and unclean living were the norm and Carling was seen as a good, clean living, almost professional bloke who happened to be a good centre. He relied very heavily on the likes of Dooley, Moore, Proyben and Richards. There just isn't those type of characters in the current EPS to support a rookie. Hartley is the best of a bad bunch but happy to proven wrong.

 

[Japhet]

I'd prefer the Captain to play in the backs and the only one who's really made the shirt his is Mike Brown.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'd prefer the Captain to play in the backs.

Why?

I think your the first person I have seen say that.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I'd prefer the Captain to play in the backs and the only one who's really made the shirt his is Mike Brown.

Brown is great but he's ne'er a Captain. Nor is Hartley but ehh. Both have too much of the wrong kind of attitude. Fine in the wider team but not when it represents it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Think Ben Youngs is the only back I'd feel OK about captaining.
Cipriani is one of our vice captains though

 

[nickdnz]

Why?

I think your the first person I have seen say that.

Certainly doesn't make sense in the outside backs...if I'm in a scrum and the opposite LH is boring in - and I can't talk to the referee unless I'm captain - I think I'm buggered.

My favorite AB captain was Umaga mind you.

Still I think leading a team from centre is easier than from fullback.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Think Ben Youngs is the only back I'd feel OK about captaining.
Cipriani is one of our vice captains though

I agree he's the only back you could consider.

Does Ben Youngs have any experience captaining sides? He's never struck me as the sharpest tool in the box (a view backed up by a rather loud mouthed, objectionable woman in a restaurant who knew him).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Captained Leicester when Slater was injured.

Think he is vice captain ATM.

 

[Wendigo7]

Mitch Lees being looked at for a role in the england side.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Who

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Who

Aussie born Exeter player

Lock/6 which we have plenty of Players already.

England pack 2016 6N's

1) Vunipola
2) Hartley
3) who cares
4) Lees
5) Williams
6) Ewers
7) Armond
8) Waldrom

Welsh fans and media will have a field day.

 

[Peat]

It worked for Warburton but the same thing didn't work for Robshaw. Sometimes picking a rookie works other times it doesn't.

Lots of people point to carling and how he was such a success but the circumstances were completely different. When he was made captain England had a massive dominate pack, the team had been underperforming because drinking and unclean living were the norm and Carling was seen as a good, clean living, almost professional bloke who happened to be a good centre. He relied very heavily on the likes of Dooley, Moore, Proyben and Richards. There just isn't those type of characters in the current EPS to support a rookie. Hartley is the best of a bad bunch but happy to proven wrong.

There is a considerable amount of truth to this; Robshaw's captaincy would have arguably been a lot more successful with them.

Tbh I'd rather stick with Robshaw than go with Hartley.