[2021 Six Nations] England vs Italy (13/02/21)

[TRF_Olyy]

Gotta say I disagree with this pretty wholeheartedly. Farrell played his best rugby at Saracens in a back line with the likes of Wigglesworth, Barritt, Goode, Maitland and Williams, none of whom are pushovers. If anything I think Farrell wants a back line of players who are going to be vocal and tell him what they want from him; it makes up for his lack of vision - he's a distributor, not a playmaker.

Aren't you agreeing with him there?
Farrell wasn't the leader at Saracens, Barritt was - with England he is and it's not working

 

[higgik]

Gotta say I disagree with this pretty wholeheartedly. Farrell played his best rugby at Saracens in a back line with the likes of Wigglesworth, Barritt, Goode, Maitland and Williams, none of whom are pushovers. If anything I think Farrell wants a back line of players who are going to be vocal and tell him what they want from him; it makes up for his lack of vision - he's a distributor, not a playmaker.

On Malins I think you're reading into it too much; he wasn't regularly cracking the 23 at Sarries as he was behind Faz at 10 and Goode at 15 who'd been staples of that backline for years. Moving to Bristol was simply a case of getting game time and not wanting to play in the Championship.

Yes, I agree that us why he plays his best rugby there. Tell him what to do and he executes really well.

I am concerned that he thinks he can do the thinking for England, to his and the teams detriment.

As for Malins, I was just posturing, as along with Losowski, they would have made a great triumavarate for England.

 

[TommiG88]

Some absolute essays on here.
England wooo

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

It's a repeat of the start of 2018 then. It's exactly the same pattern, long standing weaknesses are not addressed as long as we continue to scrape wins. The performance of the side slides and gets worse and worse until those close wins whilst playing badly turn into losses. We have just gone through the scraping wins whilst playing badly part and now we are transitioning into the playing badly and losing part. What reason is there to think that the players who have underperformed for the last year and going to turn in around in a week? It may not be as bad as 2018 because Wales and Ireland are also in a bad way but we are following the same pattern and it feels like, without a really **** set of results, nothing will change. He'll play all the same players to "win" the 6N because he trusts no-one else so then we get into the Lions and internationals. At this rate we could be left with a few of the "leadership" team not going. What then? Jones retains them for the England internationals as the "stable core" and then tinkers around with the positions that aren't problems and then claims he has experimented so all is well? Whilst seeing more 6, 7 and 13 might be interesting, they are not positions that need looking at. Every time Jones has said he will look to change things, it's been everything except the areas that actually needed changing. Last major change he did in an area that actually needed changing? 6 & 7 and it took the 2018 6N before he would budge on that and accept it was a problem.

It's normal for the leadership group to not change when they are playing in a way that justifies their position. None of the leadership group are currently playing at a level deserving of their ***le. This isn't a case of "throwing out as soon as something goes wrong", none of the leadership group have grown or learned. When have you ever seen Youngs, Farrell or Vunipola take the game by the scruff of the neck and get us back in control once it's started sliding? Nearly every game we have played once we have begun to lose control, we haven't been able to regain it until the dying seconds when the kicking ******** is dropped and we actually try to play high intensity possession rugby. Youngs in particular always shirks responsibility when things start to go wrong, whether it is in a maul or ruck or any position he will never put himself in a position where he intervenes to make or break a situation. He will happily stand back and just watch a maul get dragged down or a ruck get turned over rather than take it upon himself to remedy the situation. That is not leadership.

The 1 loss in 9 games argument is just the same as the "world record winning streak" argument back in 2018. Yeah we had some great stats before that and then it very rapidly went down the toilet.

Farrell has always been overrated as it is and has been living off a not wholly earned reputation. At his best he was a good player but this "iceman" ******** is simply not true. He's shown himself to get flustered, miss kicks and have a poor temperament lots of times, he is a far cry from an iceman. If I was to pick someone I thought was more of an iceman in the side it would be someone like Underhill. Never seen anyone get under his skin or rile him up and relatively few idiotic mistakes. Seen tons of those with Farrell. Hell even Ford has a much more controlled attitude than Farrell. Farrell is a firecracker, not an iceman. I'm not saying Farrell should never play for England again, I'm saying he should not be untouchable. His performances over more than the last year have simply not been good enough. At the very least it is him who should be on the bench, not Ford and Lawrence certainly shouldn't have been sacrificed just to accommodate Farrell. That's the issue, it's not just that he's poor and that's it, other members of the team are suffering because of the efforts to sacrifice everyone else to accommodate him when he simply does not deserve it.

In 2018, we had a large number of players knackered from the Lions. It was a different kettle of fish. If anything, this team hasn't played enough rugby rather than played too much. On top of that we had some key players in 2018 who didn't go with the Lions who were fading with age, the likes of Hartley, Robshaw, Haskell and Brown. Is that the case with Youngs, Faz, Binny etc now? Possibly, but the rest of the team isn't shattered like it was in 2018, so I'd be hugely surprised if we suddenly go on a big losing streak.

The England team of 2017-18 had been winning while playing badly. Last year, England did not play badly. Their attack did, sure, but their pack and defence were as dominant as I have ever seen an England pack and defence. Their set piece was excellent, scrums, lineouts and mauls a constant source of points and the turning over of opposition ball. The kicking game was not outstanding, but it was effective. None of that could be said for 2017-18 England. And scraping wins? In their 8 wins last year, England won by 7 points or less 3 times. One of those was in appalling conditions in Scotland and another was the game against Wales where they led by 17 points with 5 minutes to go but went down to 13 men and let in some meaningless tries. They were often dominant last year, just ask the Irish.

I'm sorry, I just can't see the 2018 comparisson holding water. But even if I'm wrong and it all comes crashing down, well that's a good thing isn't it? 2018 resulted in changes to a lot of the team, a run to the WC final and 2 more trophies in 2020.

Btw, 6&7 had long been a problem for England not because of Eddie's stubborness but because of a lack of quality options. I'm pretty sure Curryhill were thrust into the lineup as soon as they were out of short trousers and Robshaw and Haskell were duly dumped, but maybe I'm misremembering.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

But we get your point you only care about winning and don't care about the manner in which we do.

Not exactly, I just think that because a team plays badly and wins, doesn't mean the future is nothing but playing badly. Teams do improve.

But I suppose there's an interesting question that keeps cropping up from people's posts: would people be happy with Eddie losing games if he was blooding lots of new players, systems etc? Which competitions should he throw in order to do this? I've seen posts on here suggesting the ANC should have been chucked in favour of blooding youngsters. Should it be all about winning the RWC every four years and never mind winning the 6N? Or would people prefer he win the 6N and not worry about forward-planning for the RWC every four years? Genuinely curious what people think.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's a big difference between throwing a tournament and playing the form players in the country
It's not like EJ couldn't keep the donkeys on the bench and sub off the new players if they're not playing well

 

[BrokenWing]

He hasn't done that and we've still lost the first game of the six nations.

I may be remembering incorrectly, but there was a time when winning the six nations meant little to the players if it wasn't a grand slam.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

There's a big difference between throwing a tournament and playing the form players in the country
It's not like EJ couldn't keep the donkeys on the bench and sub off the new players if they're not playing well

Fair point.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I may be remembering incorrectly, but there was a time when winning the six nations meant little to the players if it wasn't a grand slam.

Try telling the Welsh that in 2013.

 

[BrokenWing]

I wasn't talking about Wales.

Granted, it was the last game that they lost, but they had still won the tournament.

 

[Which Tyler]

I may be remembering incorrectly, but there was a time when winning the six nations meant little to the players if it wasn't a grand slam.

I don't think that has ever been true.
It would be fair to say that a triple crown means little if you don't win the 6N, but not the above.
Grand Slams are ALWAYS tough, and (for England at least) generally require a bit of a run-up

 

[BrokenWing]

By the look of it, it was 2000 I was thinking of.

Could well have been because it was the last game they lost.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

By the look of it, it was 2000 I was thinking of.

Could well have been because it was the last game they lost.

That makes more sense.

I was talking about Wales' 30-3 mauling of England, snatching the ***le and the GS from England in the final game and taking the ***le for themselves without a Slam but with a record victory over the English. Pretty satisfying all round if you were Welsh.

 

[BrokenWing]

It's not just a case of taking the players off if they're not playing well, Owen farrell could be the form player all the way up to the world cup and get injured in the first game. What preparation has been made for that eventuality if all that happens is he gets shifted between 10 and 12?

 

[Which Tyler]

By the look of it, it was 2000 I was thinking of.

Could well have been because it was the last game they lost.

Ah - in the imediate aftermath of a loss? Then yes, it's little consolation. But that's really not the same thing. Ask those same players now if winning the 6N meant little to them, and that's not the answer you'd get

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In 2018, we had a large number of players knackered from the Lions. It was a different kettle of fish. If anything, this team hasn't played enough rugby rather than played too much. On top of that we had some key players in 2018 who didn't go with the Lions who were fading with age, the likes of Hartley, Robshaw, Haskell and Brown. Is that the case with Youngs, Faz, Binny etc now? Possibly, but the rest of the team isn't shattered like it was in 2018, so I'd be hugely surprised if we suddenly go on a big losing streak.

The England team of 2017-18 had been winning while playing badly. Last year, England did not play badly. Their attack did, sure, but their pack and defence were as dominant as I have ever seen an England pack and defence. Their set piece was excellent, scrums, lineouts and mauls a constant source of points and the turning over of opposition ball. The kicking game was not outstanding, but it was effective. None of that could be said for 2017-18 England. And scraping wins? In their 8 wins last year, England won by 7 points or less 3 times. One of those was in appalling conditions in Scotland and another was the game against Wales where they led by 17 points with 5 minutes to go but went down to 13 men and let in some meaningless tries. They were often dominant last year, just ask the Irish.

I'm sorry, I just can't see the 2018 comparisson holding water. But even if I'm wrong and it all comes crashing down, well that's a good thing isn't it? 2018 resulted in changes to a lot of the team, a run to the WC final and 2 more trophies in 2020.

Btw, 6&7 had long been a problem for England not because of Eddie's stubborness but because of a lack of quality options. I'm pretty sure Curryhill were thrust into the lineup as soon as they were out of short trousers and Robshaw and Haskell were duly dumped, but maybe I'm misremembering.

Most dominant Eng pack you've ever seen? Wow, I didn't realise you weren't yet old enough to go into pubs.

Early 90s and early noughties were easily more consistently dominant. Different skill sets then, but they were unquestionably the best in the world at those times.

Current lot have been brilliant at times, but not consistently enough. Respected by opponents? Yes. Feared? No. And any aura they did have was dismantled by the Boks.

You can't really compare the skill sets of different eras. But the obvious differences in those bygone packs were mental toughness and several big characters with leadership qualities irrespective of whether they were wearing the arm band.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Most dominant Eng pack you've ever seen? Wow, I didn't realise you weren't yet old enough to go into pubs.

Flattery will get you everywhere.

Not the most dominant, but as dominant as I ever have ever seen. So yes, I'd put them right up there alongside the packs you mention. I genuinely think they're that good. And still pretty young for the most part so many good years ahead.

 

[BrokenWing]

New tackling coach for Faz

 

[Stoggie]

Here we go let's drop a flanker for a 2nd row and a center for a fly half, win but unconvincingly and convince ourselves we aren't going to finish 4th/5th if we carry on like this.

Don't know why Jones is so obsessed with Farrell. Drop him and play Ford at 10 with a specialist centre.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

Don't know why Jones is so obsessed with Farrell. Drop him and play Ford at 10 with a specialist centre.

The one who gave up waiting and went to play for Scotland or the one who gave up waiting and went to play for Wales?