England vs Fiji 26th August 23

[Saintjay]

Had a chat with a friend yesterday and he brought up a few good points i couldn't answer. His point was if it's a club/league funding issue why have Scotland had England on toast for the last few years.

Player for player we are better. In Europe English clubs are better, and you can't say Scottish clubs perform fantastic in the URC. Is it that bad we need a complete overhaul to catch up with Scotland or is it even really down to money. Even Wales who have had nightmare club / WRU issues seem better than us.

My only thoughts were Scotlands players are better, and in form. They play a system that suits them. Basic skills wise they are just better.

 

[Grizwald]

Would love to see Lozowski back in an England shirt,
Mad that he's not had another look in considering how much we're missing another playmaker, value kicking and could do with an additional goal kicker

Another one in their prime that never really got a run, tackles hard too. Probably overlooked for highlight reel players, manu when fit, and Farrell at 12 (who unfortunately still think was the best option we had).

I don't think it would have been a daft idea in the short term for the WC as squad changes were limited for the 6N to build around the Sarries squad for some cohesion and structure given the short time together.

 

[Amiga500]

One the things the commentators kept banging on about yesterday was the way the Fijians kept making yards after the initial tackle.

It's a good point, that extra ground really matters. Either comes from raw power, speed or leg drive, all coupled with aggression and determination.

Having only watched 3 mins of highlights - and seeing a few carries - its not just yards - its upright yards when the ball can still be off-loaded.

An extra couple of yards when the ball is gonna die in a short ruck ain't the answer either - so seeking yards after contact could be another one of those misleading statistics like Borthwick's kicking thing - and genetically the islanders are a different ball-game with their lower body power. Northern Europeans just aren't the same.

 

[Protalus rampart]

Had a chat with a friend yesterday and he brought up a few good points i couldn't answer. His point was if it's a club/league funding issue why have Scotland had England on toast for the last few years.

Player for player we are better. In Europe English clubs are better, and you can't say Scottish clubs perform fantastic in the URC. Is it that bad we need a complete overhaul to catch up with Scotland or is it even really down to money. Even Wales who have had nightmare club / WRU issues seem better than us.

My only thoughts were Scotlands players are better, and in form. They play a system that suits them. Basic skills wise they are just better.

Scotland probably have a good a talent pool as they've ever had right now and they play a style which fits the talent pool perfectly.

England may not have players that are at the peak of their powers but they have the calibre of players that should at the very least be playing 5/6th best in the world. They just have no style or identity about them.

Watching Scotland's warmups against France immediately after the England games highlighted just how far behind England have fallen.

 

[Zootalaws]

Allowing clubs to run academies means they have control of player development.
The RFU have completely absolved responsibility for the youth area and we are now suffering.

Prem clubs should only be allowed to employ over 20 year olds on full time contracts and there should be a pool of 18-20 year olds who can be drafted on a year contract, with a standard salary, paid 50/50, by club and RFU, by any team, outside of the salary cap, but restricted to a number per club.

That way clubs will be able to free up some salary cap, will be able to reduce costs of running an academy, while getting a bunch of young players for one year to 'trial' them.

RFU need to take control up to U20, with more mibey going to elite unis and sixth forms, with another centralised one for those players not able to go to uni, how about a rugby academy in Rugby, running 16-21 courses of different levels and specialisms.

You run rugby like a corporation. We run it like it's a passion.

That's not to say you're not passionate about the game, but its run like a traditional English corporate, with a chairman and shareholders who are profit-centric.

Very, very different, here.

We lived in the UK for a couple of decades. My son tried to get into a decent team, but didn't go to the right school. Gave up trying - there's sweet fa support for kids in unpopular (read, teams not in the premiership) counties - and got into other sport. Went to the Olympics and now coaches RAF and Team GB. RFU's loss. The Olympic route wasn't easy - no funding unless you prove yourself at Euro level - but at least you get to prove yourself.

That's a common problem with UK rugby - kids not even able to get a tryout, not even a weekend of basic trials, where in NZ everyone gets a go. His mate ended up playing league because they were happy to give him a crack. Represented RAF then the Combined Forces but couldn't even get any sort of academy or U18 tryout.

And the equipment situation is parlous - just nothing from the RFU, despite dues being pretty steep. Coaching and refereeing, similarly, was a joke.

I've got no good memories of UK small-town rugby. Back in NZ I live in a very small rural town and the local team is thriving, well supported and plenty of teams in every grade. We've got no money, like everywhere, but get great support and tons of kit, thanks to the local Union and the NZRFU. Coaching schools, refereeing schools, as many as you can spare the time to attend.

Because it's all about the game and the game is all about the kids.

You've got the biggest and richest union in the world and yet you seem to be so miserly with resources, except where there's a quid to be made.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

richest union in the world

They've even managed to arse that up, sure I saw an article saying the RFU is £50m in the red this season or something like that

 

[Zootalaws]

Had a chat with a friend yesterday and he brought up a few good points i couldn't answer. His point was if it's a club/league funding issue why have Scotland had England on toast for the last few years.

Player for player we are better. In Europe English clubs are better, and you can't say Scottish clubs perform fantastic in the URC. Is it that bad we need a complete overhaul to catch up with Scotland or is it even really down to money. Even Wales who have had nightmare club / WRU issues seem better than us.

My only thoughts were Scotlands players are better, and in form. They play a system that suits them. Basic skills wise they are just better.

Scotland will take any kid wanting to play, and give them the resources to be the best they can. They then have a pool to pick from that have been well trained in the mode of play they want to play. Same as NZ. Every town has a club and regular competition and support from the SRFU.

England just don't.

How many England players have come from outside an academy? How many tryouts do the RFU run for prospective talent? Any? I don't ever recall seeing a 'hey kids, come down and give it a crack' type weekends, and we're rugby right through like Brighton rock.

Bath was our closest academy. The Bath DPP has five feeder clubs. if you don't play for one of those, **** out of luck, pal. We were in Wiltshire, where there are 51 clubs, but just two allied with the DPP - Swindon's Supermarine and Chippenham. it's a big county and if you don't live in either of those two towns, that's you done.

Compare that with Scotland's State School Strategy and Agenda 3 strategy. 176 high schools and 81 clubs all supported within five regional organisations.

That's why Scotland does more with less.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's why Scotland does more with less.

21 of Scotland's 33 man squad were developed in other countries

 

[die_mole]

Scotland's age grade has been relegated out of the championship and finished behind Spain and Samoa this year. I wouldn't be citing them as a system of excellence in terms of youth development.

France use a club system and they absolutely dominate the U20s. Three ***les in a row. Their national team seems to be doing pretty damn good too.

 

[die_mole]

21 of Scotland's 33 man squad were developed in other countries

Scotland's senior success is actually a credit to the English club player development system.

 

[saulan]

That's a common problem with UK rugby - kids not even able to get a tryout, not even a weekend of basic trials, where in NZ everyone gets a go. His mate ended up playing league because they were happy to give him a crack. Represented RAF then the Combined Forces but couldn't even get any sort of academy or U18 tryout.

And I think the problem here hasn't really been felt yet, it's a future problem. Right now England have the talent of historically strong junior intake doing well (from '13-'18 in the U20 tournament, they won three times and were the runner-up in the rest). The results have been a bit weaker since then (5th and 4th, granted only two tournaments, still relatively decent) and Six Nations U20 results have also been a bit weaker, but it is still ok. I think in Europe, France have massive support for the sport helping fuel strong academy and local side development, and Ireland are also doing a great job of developing their junior talent.

On the bus back from the game at Twickenham on Friday I had a dad with his two sons next to me (both probably about 15-18). The one was in the Leicester Tigers academy, then got concussed and now isn't in the loop at all (Sure other things are relevant here, but didn't really seem that he had much hope at all of being involved now). They had recently toured South Africa with their school and they were raving about the systems in place for juniors coming through the ranks and complaining that there was just nothing like that in England, also emphasising that you need to play in the right schools or in the right area or you don't get a look in. Also said something about the trials for the juniors happening pretty once-off and a lot of it is already decided/not much opportunity for countryside team kids to get into the squads and no way for the coaches to get a good view of the players in any other way apart from the trials. Meanwhile, here in London I can stream and watch my High School play every week, plus there is commentated highlights and websites dedicated for schoolboy rugby and highlights (links below for reference). Then after school, strong players can either go to uni and play in the televised tournament there, or play u20 for the franchises and get decent exposure there also. So many avenues for development.

I really feel that England are falling behind in terms of their systems for rugby development and general support (we saw it this weekend, but it's not just performances on the field, your weird way of splitting the rugby in the season across multiple subscriptions is bizarre and makes it tricky for a fan to follow - plus I really don't get why there isn't an option to watch every game of your team in some form every year - again I can do this with my high school and it will have commentary... although the commentary isn't great).

Strong and growing Rugby Union needs a strong England, so I really do hope that things can change in the next three years in terms of structure to get them back in a strong position.

Highlights of recent Interschools clash (largest Paarl teams):
Highlights of my High School losing, just for fun:

Edit: Sorry I ranted and didn't proof read that because it's a Sunday. Hopefully that is coherent

 

[higgik]

Another one in their prime that never really got a run, tackles hard too. Probably overlooked for highlight reel players, manu when fit, and Farrell at 12 (who unfortunately still think was the best option we had).

I don't think it would have been a daft idea in the short term for the WC as squad changes were limited for the 6N to build around the Sarries squad for some cohesion and structure given the short time together.

Look at the Sarries team from final, and we could easily add in players to compliment it.
1. Marler
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Lawes
7. Earl
8. Ludlam
9. Mitchell
10. Farrell*
11. Arundell
12. Lawrence
13. Lozowski
14. Malins
15. Slade

 

[Grizwald]

Scotland probably have a good a talent pool as they've ever had right now and they play a style which fits the talent pool perfectly.

England may not have players that are at the peak of their powers but they have the calibre of players that should at the very least be playing 5/6th best in the world. They just have no style or identity about them.

Watching Scotland's warmups against France immediately after the England games highlighted just how far behind England have fallen.

Looking at the Scottish age grades what is coming through, this is the best chance of success they'll have for a while.

Smaller player pool can be to your advantage in some ways too. Think of the English qualified players who have gone over the border as they weren't going to get a look in they kind of have to stick with and develop what they have Chris Harris as one example. Plus the Scottish squads have been bolstered for a while now by qualifying players through ancestry or residence-will struggle for the latter more now it's 5 rather than 3 years.

 

[Grizwald]

And I think the problem here hasn't really been felt yet, it's a future problem. Right now England have the talent of historically strong junior intake doing well (from '13-'18 in the U20 tournament, they won three times and were the runner-up in the rest). The results have been a bit weaker since then (5th and 4th, granted only two tournaments, still relatively decent) and Six Nations U20 results have also been a bit weaker, but it is still ok. I think in Europe, France have massive support for the sport helping fuel strong academy and local side development, and Ireland are also doing a great job of developing their junior talent.

On the bus back from the game at Twickenham on Friday I had a dad with his two sons next to me (both probably about 15-18). The one was in the Leicester Tigers academy, then got concussed and now isn't in the loop at all (Sure other things are relevant here, but didn't really seem that he had much hope at all of being involved now). They had recently toured South Africa with their school and they were raving about the systems in place for juniors coming through the ranks and complaining that there was just nothing like that in England, also emphasising that you need to play in the right schools or in the right area or you don't get a look in. Also said something about the trials for the juniors happening pretty once-off and a lot of it is already decided/not much opportunity for countryside team kids to get into the squads and no way for the coaches to get a good view of the players in any other way apart from the trials. Meanwhile, here in London I can stream and watch my High School play every week, plus there is commentated highlights and websites dedicated for schoolboy rugby and highlights (links below for reference). Then after school, strong players can either go to uni and play in the televised tournament there, or play u20 for the franchises and get decent exposure there also. So many avenues for development.

I really feel that England are falling behind in terms of their systems for rugby development and general support (we saw it this weekend, but it's not just performances on the field, your weird way of splitting the rugby in the season across multiple subscriptions is bizarre and makes it tricky for a fan to follow - plus I really don't get why there isn't an option to watch every game of your team in some form every year - again I can do this with my high school and it will have commentary... although the commentary isn't great).

Strong and growing Rugby Union needs a strong England, so I really do hope that things can change in the next three years in terms of structure to get them back in a strong position.

Highlights of recent Interschools clash (largest Paarl teams):
Highlights of my High School losing, just for fun:

Edit: Sorry I ranted and didn't proof read that because it's a Sunday. Hopefully that is coherent

Crowds there are impressive for high-schools. Participations numbers are still strong but there's a general sense of apathy around the amateur game I've found post covid at my own club and the sound bites are parents are being put off their kids playing rugby due to concussion issues.

England's PR seems to be pretty poor too they could be getting out into schools and building up their stars more or creating them in the first place.

I will say rugby union is a minority sport, plenty of amateur clubs in the North West of the county where I live but get on you've either got to be in a private school or have a slim chance of getting picked up on a scholarship at university by a club like Newcaslte Falcons.

English age grades seem to do ok consistently, I wonder if it's just the numbers start to be counter productive, somehow I doubt it. There looks to be some impressive athletes in the U20's and U18's.

 

[Grizwald]

And I think the problem here hasn't really been felt yet, it's a future problem. Right now England have the talent of historically strong junior intake doing well (from '13-'18 in the U20 tournament, they won three times and were the runner-up in the rest). The results have been a bit weaker since then (5th and 4th, granted only two tournaments, still relatively decent) and Six Nations U20 results have also been a bit weaker, but it is still ok. I think in Europe, France have massive support for the sport helping fuel strong academy and local side development, and Ireland are also doing a great job of developing their junior talent.

On the bus back from the game at Twickenham on Friday I had a dad with his two sons next to me (both probably about 15-18). The one was in the Leicester Tigers academy, then got concussed and now isn't in the loop at all (Sure other things are relevant here, but didn't really seem that he had much hope at all of being involved now). They had recently toured South Africa with their school and they were raving about the systems in place for juniors coming through the ranks and complaining that there was just nothing like that in England, also emphasising that you need to play in the right schools or in the right area or you don't get a look in. Also said something about the trials for the juniors happening pretty once-off and a lot of it is already decided/not much opportunity for countryside team kids to get into the squads and no way for the coaches to get a good view of the players in any other way apart from the trials. Meanwhile, here in London I can stream and watch my High School play every week, plus there is commentated highlights and websites dedicated for schoolboy rugby and highlights (links below for reference). Then after school, strong players can either go to uni and play in the televised tournament there, or play u20 for the franchises and get decent exposure there also. So many avenues for development.

I really feel that England are falling behind in terms of their systems for rugby development and general support (we saw it this weekend, but it's not just performances on the field, your weird way of splitting the rugby in the season across multiple subscriptions is bizarre and makes it tricky for a fan to follow - plus I really don't get why there isn't an option to watch every game of your team in some form every year - again I can do this with my high school and it will have commentary... although the commentary isn't great).

Strong and growing Rugby Union needs a strong England, so I really do hope that things can change in the next three years in terms of structure to get them back in a strong position.

Highlights of recent Interschools clash (largest Paarl teams):
Highlights of my High School losing, just for fun:

Edit: Sorry I ranted and didn't proof read that because it's a Sunday. Hopefully that is coherent

Crowds there are impressive for high-schools. Participations numbers are still strong but there's a general sense of apathy around the amateur game I've found post covid at my own club and the sound bites are parents are being put off their kids playing rugby due to concussion issues.

England's PR seems to be pretty poor too they could be getting out into schools and building up their stars more or creating them in the first place.

I will say rugby union is a minority sport, plenty of amateur clubs in the North West of the county where I live but get on you've either got to be in a private school or have a slim chance of getting picked up on a scholarship at university by a club like Newcaslte Falcons.

English age grades seem to do ok consistently, I wonder if it's just the numbers start to be counter productive, somehow I doubt it. There looks to be some impressive athletes in the U20's and U18's I thought Ireland in comparison looked smaller but better coached in the recent U20 world championships.

 

[saulan]

Crowds there are impressive for high-schools. Participations numbers are still strong but there's a general sense of apathy around the amateur game I've found post covid at my own club and the sound bites are parents are being put off their kids playing rugby due to concussion issues.

that first one is a game that brings that town to a standstill. Second video is pretty standard attendance, but looks misleadingly empty given most of the stands are where the camera is.

English age grades seem to do ok consistently, I wonder if it's just the numbers start to be counter productive, somehow I doubt it. There looks to be some impressive athletes in the U20's and U18's.

I think the problem is picking up the late bloomers. You can get a decent single side at U18/U20, but you could be missing out on some of the top talent that weren't showing up in High School. We wouldn't have Mapimpi without our club rugby systems and the following players were in our University tournament (just a selection): Etzebeth, Nyakane, Lood, Pollard, De Allende, Koch, Mbonambi, Marx, RJVR, Rhule, Leyds, Nche, Orie, Snyman, Van Staden, Arendse, Libbok and Herschel Jantjies.

Honours Roll | Varsity Cup

www.varsitycup.co.za

 

[BPM]

Scotland's age grade has been relegated out of the championship and finished behind Spain and Samoa this year. I wouldn't be citing them as a system of excellence in terms of youth development.

France use a club system and they absolutely dominate the U20s. Three ***les in a row. Their national team seems to be doing pretty damn good too.

100%. In the recent past Scotland has put way more into it's poaching of overseas players and their exiles programs. For the most part they're not developing players at all, they're just benefitting from other nations' work. I don't like it, but they haven't broken any rules.

They still have to bring them together and make it work too and currently they're doing a much better job of that than anyone involved with the England set up.

 

[TopTen2003]

It's a travesty that we haven't set Sir Clive Woodward the task of running the RFU. The bloke lives and breaths rugby and business, can run big organisations with his eyes closed and has a track record with England Rugby and the Olympics for bringing the right people, coaches, funding and training to achieve massive success on an international scale.

Don't let this idea that he's outdated as a coach distract you from the fact he is a ruthless winner and organiser- he'd absolutely transform the wider structure for the good of England Rugby.

But that's a whole other issue.

The one at hand right now is that the coach has picked the wrong players to suit his limited and fundamentally flawed game plan that simply doesn't stand up to the rigours of top level international rugby.

 

[die_mole]

Winelands high school rugby is wonderful and really should be experienced by any rugby fan.

But the UK does have BUCS super rugby and is a legit pathway to professional rugby to catch late bloomers. I don't think the issue is things happening outside of the RFU's control but rather the things they do control. The relationship with the clubs has resulted in players being available 50% of the time (hurting the premiership) and a senior national team that has been directionless for the last 4 years.

I saw the bbc had an article ***led "where are England's world class players?" The answer is they are either aging out cause elite rugby is an old man's game or they aren't being picked. Under Eddie a young player was picked once and if they weren't perfect they were exiled.

 

[BrokenWing]

Or scapegoated for other players shortcomings.

Difficult to be anything if you don't get the ball.