[EOYT] Italy vs. Argentina 23/11/13

[LittleGuy]

Italy vs. Argentina 23/11/13, 15:00 CET, Stadio Olimpico, Rome, Italy.

Referee: Chris Pollock (New Zealand)

(Credit's to PD) An underperforming Italy and chaotically prepared Argentina collide to decide epic battle of whether they are 10th or not in the IRB rankings and settle the debate as to who has had most abominable autumn.

 

[wayner]

Do ranking points really matter for anything?

For fun Castro and Sergio should switch jerseys and play for the land of their birth - that would make the game more interesting.

 

[LittleGuy]

Do ranking points really matter for anything?

For fun Castro and Sergio should switch jerseys and play for the land of their birth - that would make the game more interesting.

Not so much at the moment other than pride, but for RWC seeding and certain tournament tie breakers in extreme circumstances they can be important.

 

[psychic duck]

Argentina have lost their most important player Albacete for this game for club reasons. Italy surely ought to win this at home.

Something else to note from this game, it has been dedicated to the Pope. http://www.wantedinrome.com/news/2002733/italy-argentina-rugby-match-dedicated-to-pope-francis.html

 

[LittleGuy]

Edit: Sorry guys you caught me at a bad time, I've had to deal with about three complaints already tonight, and wasn't in the right mood for that I should have just let it slide. Even getting these basic threads started does take a few minutes though, and the little write ups are nothing more than "get the discussion" flowing talking points.

 

[psychic duck]

You know what you guys do the write ups.

This should stir up some excitement for the game. An underperforming Italy and chaotically prepared Argentina collide to decide epic battle of whether they are 10th or not in the IRB rankings and settle the debate as to who has had most abominable autumn.

Seriously though, this is Argentina's leftovers from the Phelan fall out. Their situation reminds me of Wales in 2006 after the Gareth Thomas' deposing of Ruddock. They are at a low and Italy are struggling so bad they still went for 3 points against 12 men. This likely won't be the best of games.

 

[LittleGuy]

This should stir up some excitement for the game. An underperforming Italy and chaotically prepared Argentina collide to decide epic battle of whether they are 10th or not in the IRB rankings and settle the debate as to who has had most abominable autumn.

Seriously though, this is Argentina's leftovers from the Phelan fall out. Their situation reminds me of Wales in 2006 after the Gareth Thomas' deposing of Ruddock. They are at a low and Italy are struggling so bad they still went for 3 points against 12 men. This likely won't be the best of games.

Agreed on your analysis PD, and again sorry for the outburst earlier(to wayner as well) I needed a few deep breaths instead LOL.

I'm hoping this is one of those games that's so bad it might actually be good. This has almost certainly got to be the worst year the Pumas have ever had, and an interesting stat that our mutual friend Paul Tait told me, Agulla has now got the lowest try to game ratio of any winger with over 50 caps.

 

[Jaguares]

Argentina have lost their most important player Albacete for this game for club reasons. Italy surely ought to win this at home.

Something else to note from this game, it has been dedicated to the Pope. http://www.wantedinrome.com/news/2002733/italy-argentina-rugby-match-dedicated-to-pope-francis.html

Bad news but the Pumas still could win, don't forget that Italy is a branch Argentina. Many Argentine players that were unable reach to the Pumas play for Italy (Castrogiovanni, Parisse...)

The two teams are going through a bad time, The team that can take advantage of the opponent's mistakes will win the game. I think that's the key, whoever win the match will be the team that can take advantage of opponent's mistakes. I can't see any of the teams win with their own weapons.

 

[Big Ewis]

oh, so this thread is up !
But LittleGuy, why does it look like it was written by an 8-year old Chinese girl trapped in your basement ?

So anyways. NOT going to be a pretty match. To think I was really eager to watching this one when I heard about it months ago...things sure have changed since. Italy for some odd reason have decided they were a Tier 2 nation (albeit, with a couple of Tier 1 qualities) since the summer quadrangular, and Argentina their Trans-Atlantic mirror, but they have had a rough ride that explains a lot of it...

I don't even know what to expect here. A while back, I'd have said Argentina of course, but right now...not even sure.

 

[Aspry]

For fun Castro and Sergio should switch jerseys and play for the land of their birth - that would make the game more interesting.

If Rugby wasn't an amateur sport in here I am really sure that Luciano Orquera, Matias Aguero, Gonzalo Canale, Sergio Parisse and Martin Castrogiovanni would be playing for Argentina by now.

So anyways. NOT going to be a pretty match.

I say the exact opposite. It's going to be a great match full of tries for each side and excitement. When two teams are playing bad, specially in defense, it's expected to be a high point scoring match. This logic always happens, and not only applies to Rugby.

So Bosch, Albacete and Senatore are out due to clubs issues... then I'd say Italy to win by 15+
It's funny when you see the probable starting lineup to this test, it almost looks like we're playing with the Jaguars instead of the seniors. The only good one is that Imhoff will be back.

 

[LittleGuy]

oh, so this thread is up !
But LittleGuy, why does it look like it was written by an 8-year old Chinese girl trapped in your basement ?

So anyways. NOT going to be a pretty match. To think I was really eager to watching this one when I heard about it months ago...things sure have changed since. Italy for some odd reason have decided they were a Tier 2 nation (albeit, with a couple of Tier 1 qualities) since the summer quadrangular, and Argentina their Trans-Atlantic mirror, but they have had a rough ride that explains a lot of it...

I don't even know what to expect here. A while back, I'd have said Argentina of course, but right now...not even sure.

Shhhhhhhhhh

 

[Gena_ZA]

Think Italy can snatch this one by a small margin.
They seems to be a bit more in control that the Argies lately.

 

[Jaguares]

If Rugby wasn't an amateur sport in here I am really sure that Luciano Orquera, Matias Aguero, Gonzalo Canale, Sergio Parisse and Martin Castrogiovanni would be playing for Argentina by now.

You're talking nonsense, the players who you quoted, only Castrogiovanni and Parisse would start from the beginning a game for the Pumas. The Pumas have had better players than Orquera, Aguero and Canale. As Pichot, Hernández, Albacete and others who have played for the Pumas although sport isn't professional in Argentina.

Furthermore, the non-professional sport in Argentina isn't important in this matter. Argentina's soccer team, is a product of European football leagues, not the product of Argentina Football League (AFA). The best Argentine footballers play in Europe: Messi (Barcelona), Sergio Aguero (Manchester City), Di Maria (Real Madrid), Gonzalo Higuain (Napoli). Like the Pumas, the best players play in Europe: Albacete (Toulouse), Ayerza (Leicester Tigers), Fernandez Lobbe (Toulon), Juan Martin Hernandez (Racing Metro), Gonzalo Camacho (Leicester Tigers).

The best Argentine players play in Europe, if Castro and Parisse were not recruited by the Pumas scouting while they played in Argentina, is the fault of the UAR managers.

Cheers

 

[Aspry]

You're talking nonsense, the players who you quoted, only Castrogiovanni and Parisse would start from the beginning a game for the Pumas. The Pumas have had better players than Orquera, Aguero and Canale. As Pichot, Hernández, Albacete and others who have played for the Pumas although sport isn't professional in Argentina.

Furthermore, the non-professional sport in Argentina isn't important in this matter. Argentina's soccer team, is a product of European football leagues, not the product of Argentina Football League (AFA). The best Argentine footballers play in Europe: Messi (Barcelona), Sergio Aguero (Manchester City), Di Maria (Real Madrid), Gonzalo Higuain (Napoli). Like the Pumas, the best players play in Europe: Albacete (Toulouse), Ayerza (Leicester Tigers), Fernandez Lobbe (Toulon), Juan Martin Hernandez (Racing Metro), Gonzalo Camacho (Leicester Tigers).

The best Argentine players play in Europe, if Castro and Parisse were not recruited by the Pumas scouting while they played in Argentina, is the fault of the UAR managers.

Cheers

I didn't say they would make it to the starting XV, I am just saying they would be able to be selected by the UAR wich is something good since having a bigger pool of players to select is always better. I agree that only Parisse and Castrogiovanni could be part of the starting XV, but I you think it through you will notice that for this match Bosch and Fernandez are out, so we have to improvise the lineup by moving Agulla at center... Now, wouldn't be better to have Canale playing there??
Do you understand the point that I am trying to make now? Also, those players I named could easily be part of other UAR squads, like for example Pampas XV or the Sevens.

Rugby not being professional in Argentina IS A BIG DEAL to this matter. The UAR in that time didn't offer Parisse and Castrogiovanni a contract which they would earn money. In the other hand, Italy clubs did it so that's why they are playing in Italy right now. You're also wrong with football saying Argentina's soccer team is a product of European football leagues. All those world class players you name and also the other ones you forgot, they all played and developed their football in Argentina, playing in the argentine league wich happens to be professional. That's the difference. All those big players that Europe enjoys now, they're all formed in Argentina, except for Messi of course, who was formed in La Masía.

It's the fault of the UAR, I don't blame the players for choosing Italy. I think I would have done the same, if I want to be a Rugby player I would like to be paid. If it was a professional league in Argentina in that time and if the economic situation was a bit better, I am sure that many of them would have stayed in Argentina.

 

[Big Ewis]

.I say the exact opposite. It's going to be a great match full of tries for each side and excitement. When two teams are playing bad, specially in defense, it's expected to be a high point scoring match. This logic always happens, and not only applies to Rugby.

So Bosch, Albacete and Senatore are out due to clubs issues... then I'd say Italy to win by 15+
It's funny when you see the probable starting lineup to this test, it almost looks like we're playing with the Jaguars instead of the seniors. The only good one is that Imhoff will be back.

sure, but I'm not sure this will happen here. It very well may, but I'd imagine they'll both play mild defense but neither team has a lot of attacking punch these days so I think the score will be closer to 20-16 rather than something like 35-29.
Still could be entertaining, I mean I still support both sides and enjoy watching them...I really just hope they don't look terrible.

Boy, 2013 has NOT been good to those sides in retrospect...they both had their moments, no doubt, Argentina coming close in AUS and against the Boks, and giving the AB's something to chew; Italy winning against France and Ireland (for the first time in the 6N) and showing something in Twickenham...but then overall, pretty terrible. They both look terrible at the moment, and I really hope to see them rise again asap !!
Vamos Pumas, and Forza Italia !..

 

[Jaguares]

I didn't say they would make it to the starting XV, I am just saying they would be able to be selected by the UAR wich is something good since having a bigger pool of players to select is always better. I agree that only Parisse and Castrogiovanni could be part of the starting XV, but I you think it through you will notice that for this match Bosch and Fernandez are out, so we have to improvise the lineup by moving Agulla at center... Now, wouldn't be better to have Canale playing there??
Do you understand the point that I am trying to make now? Also, those players I named could easily be part of other UAR squads, like for example Pampas XV or the Sevens.

Rugby not being professional in Argentina IS A BIG DEAL to this matter. The UAR in that time didn't offer Parisse and Castrogiovanni a contract which they would earn money. In the other hand, Italy clubs did it so that's why they are playing in Italy right now. You're also wrong with football saying Argentina's soccer team is a product of European football leagues. All those world class players you name and also the other ones you forgot, they all played and developed their football in Argentina, playing in the argentine league wich happens to be professional. That's the difference. All those big players that Europe enjoys now, they're all formed in Argentina, except for Messi of course, who was formed in La Masía.

It's the fault of the UAR, I don't blame the players for choosing Italy. I think I would have done the same, if I want to be a Rugby player I would like to be paid. If it was a professional league in Argentina in that time and if the economic situation was a bit better, I am sure that many of them would have stayed in Argentina.

Did you see a Bath's game with Agulla play at centre? Gonzalo Canale was driven from Clermont, now is playing in La Rochelle. I think that a Bath player is better than a La Rochelle player, also Agulla played as centre in Bath.

The Argentine National football team is a product of the European leagues. Sergio Aguero has 413 caps in clubs, only 56 caps in Argentina (Indepentiente). Gonzalo Higuain has 312 caps in clubs, only 28 caps in Argentina (River Plate). Di Maria has 178 caps in clubs, only 35 caps in Argentina (Rosario Central). And Messi never played in Argentina.

Argentina's soccer league is ****, the best players play short time and go abroad. There are only bad players and rookies. So the national team players have played more years in Europe than in the local league. Then the national team is a product of the European leagues.

Not like in NZ or SA, where the best rugby players play their best years in the local league and then migrate abroad. They play their best years in the local league (ITM Cup, Currie Cup and even Super Rugby) while Argentine players play their best years in Europe, then they are a product of the European leagues, who buy younger footballers, teach them discipline, tactics and other things. The Argentine players in their careers, have more years being led by European coaches than Argentine coaches.

Cheers

 

[Aspry]

Did you see a Bath's game with Agulla play at centre? Gonzalo Canale was driven from Clermont, now is playing in La Rochelle. I think that a Bath player is better than a La Rochelle player, also Agulla played as centre in Bath.

The Argentine National football team is a product of the European leagues. Sergio Aguero has 413 caps in clubs, only 56 caps in Argentina (Indepentiente). Gonzalo Higuain has 312 caps in clubs, only 28 caps in Argentina (River Plate). Di Maria has 178 caps in clubs, only 35 caps in Argentina (Rosario Central). And Messi never played in Argentina.

Argentina's soccer league is ****, the best players play short time and go abroad. There are only bad players and rookies. So the national team players have played more years in Europe than in the local league. Then the national team is a product of the European leagues.

Not like in NZ or SA, where the best rugby players play their best years in the local league and then migrate abroad. They play their best years in the local league (ITM Cup, Currie Cup and even Super Rugby) while Argentine players play their best years in Europe, then they are a product of the European leagues, who buy younger footballers, teach them discipline, tactics and other things. The Argentine players in their careers, have more years being led by European coaches than Argentine coaches.

Cheers

No I didn't see Agulla playing centre in Bath. Anyways it doesn't matter, my point is really clear, having a bigger pool of players to select is always better. If you consider them bad then you simply don't select them and that's it. They can join to the team when the good players get injuries or club issues that forbids them to play.

Nope mate, you're wrong. All those players (except Messi, as I already mention it) developed their football in Argentina. They learn how to play in Argentina, the first time they kicked a ball was here and the first time they played professionally was also here. Saying the national team is product of europe is just wrong... specially when Europe is fulled by South American players. There's at least 2 or 3 playing in the important teams. They basically play with each other, there's not really a European style of play, since more than the half of their players aren't from Europe.

You can say what you want about the argentine league, that's subjective. Everybody will have a different opinon, for example me, I don't consider Trezeguet or Camoranesi bad players (both world champions) neither Riquelme or Maxi Rodriguez. But is okay though, I really don't care since you can't compare it with Europe due the money they move there, wich is the main reason why the youngest players from South America migrates there.

The Argentine players in their careers, have more years being led by European coaches than Argentine coaches.

That's funny you say that, when Martino, Bielsa, Simeone, Pochettino, they're all from Argentina. Martino coaches Messi and Mascherano, Pellegrini (Chilean) coaches Aguero, Zabaleta, Demichelis... see what I mean??

Before you reply this message have in count that I probably won't answer you back since I don't want to change the real topic in here, wich happens to be the Italy vs Argentina Rugby test match.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

That's funny you say that, when Martino, Bielsa, Simeone, Pochettino, they're all from Argentina. Martino coaches Messi and Mascherano, Pellegrini (Chilean) coaches Aguero, Zabaleta, Demichelis... see what I mean??

Before you reply this message have in count that I probably won't answer you back since I don't want to change the real topic in here, wich happens to be the Italy vs Argentina Rugby test match.

god why bring football into this. this is RUGBY!

 

[Aspry]

Boy, 2013 has NOT been good to those sides in retrospect...they both had their moments, no doubt, Argentina coming close in AUS and against the Boks, and giving the AB's something to chew; Italy winning against France and Ireland (for the first time in the 6N) and showing something in Twickenham...but then overall, pretty terrible. They both look terrible at the moment, and I really hope to see them rise again asap !!
Vamos Pumas, and Forza Italia !..

I think Italy is better psychologically speaking than Argentina. Italy comes from a win and they had a very good performance in the past Six Nations, wich is the most important competition for them. Argentina in the other hand, comes from 8 defeats in a row. One could argue that Argentina only played with the best teams recently, that is the SANZAR nations and the two best teams in Europe at the moment... and because of that they lost almost all their matches in the year, but seriously being defeated by those big margins vs South Africa, Australia and recently Wales... there are no excuses for that. Also Italy will be playing home, so they got a big chance to pull the upset here, I think they will win by +15/10 points.

god why bring football into this. this is RUGBY!

Don't blame me, he started it

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Can see this going either way. Both teams have put in the odd good game against tier 1 teams and both have also put in dire performances. Both also seem to be going backwards rather than forwards at the moment. I don't see any way to call this, either side can win.