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June International Test: South Africa vs. Ireland [2nd Test] (18/06/2016)

munstermuffin said:
Again I may be wrong but is logic from Lions that they must remove themselves to be free to attend other nations games too. I could be totally wrong on that too.
As Alpha and Lynam suggest though a back coach should be brought in short term if Joe goes. I don't think Kiss would come back unless it's overall boss. Alpha I'd disagree on Easterby point though. He's an excellent reader of game and proved a lot when with Scarlets and I think he'll have benefitted from being with Schmidt too.
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Quick google seems to say Gatland did the Autumn Tests in 2012. Its just the 6Ns he'd miss. Its not like he could watch all of the other nations matches live anyway.
 
TRF_Peat said:
Quick google seems to say Gatland did the Autumn Tests in 2012. Its just the 6Ns he'd miss. Its not like he could watch all of the other nations matches live anyway.
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But did Howley coach Autumn tests that season I thought. As I say I'm not sure. Maybe he could coach. Regardless I'm sure Schmidt will have it all sorted in due course.

As for recommendations of Lam. I'd agree with groundhog. I'm unsure as his record before Connacht isn't great but more so would he get his style implemented in the limited time. More so I'd like to see how next season in Champions Cup goes 1st too. On Gibbes I'd wonder will he be thinking NZ too.
 
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It'll be a backs coach brought in anyway, who's in charge there in Connacht? I wouldn't mind a ticket headed by Easterby with Farrell and a good backs coach. I think Joe has left in in good enough order to not need to go for a big name replacement.
 
munstermuffin said:
But did Howley coach Autumn tests that season I thought. As I say I'm not sure. Maybe he could coach. Regardless I'm sure Schmidt will have it all sorted in due course.

As for recommendations of Lam. I'd agree with groundhog. I'm unsure as his record before Connacht isn't great but more so would he get his style implemented in the limited time. More so I'd like to see how next season in Champions Cup goes 1st too. On Gibbes I'd wonder will he be thinking NZ too.
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Howley's wikipedia article says they split it, with Gatland doing the two big ones.
 
TRF_Peat said:
Howley's wikipedia article says they split it, with Gatland doing the two big ones.
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Again that may have been case. I'm not too sure and I'd presume something similar can be done again. But honestly I think Schmidt can only beat All Blacks and do a Grand Slam. They're the only 2 things he can achieve that he hasn't already. (Well a triple crown too).
 
I'm not particularly pleased or displeased with the Bok selection;

In the front row Malherbe gets a chance to redeem himself but the position I am more concerned with is hooker. Strauss is probably the 3rd best hooker in SA ATM (not counting our foreign based guys here) and is only there based on experience and experience in a leadership role. I don't rate him as a captain TBH and feel he doesn't have the presence a hooker like Bismarck had and has lost his running game which is what made him a good option as a bench hooker. Mbonambi is there for political reasons plain and simple. Even a reasonable person can't give him the benefit of the doubt. This is a weak spot whereas it used to be a strength.

Locks are solid. Du Toit starting and De Jager dropped with Mostert coming in is a good call on form. We have depth here and can afford to make the call on form rather than rep/caps.

I'm very much underwhelmed with our backrow. Louw is like our 3rd best openside behind Coetzee (okay, so he's injured) and Kriel who just can't seem to catch a break. Starting Whitely with Kriel on the bench could've worked here IMO but we'll never know. Louw and Vermeulen just aren't up to speed.

Faf had a decent game last week. Here's hoping he can build on it. With Lambie out our hand is forced but I'm sure Jantjies should do well at home.

Centers were a weak point last week. Its a new combination, Mapoe has to adapt to test rugby and De Allende is off form. We all knew this going into last week but were hoping they could 'come right' because if they can they could be a lethal combo. Is it naive to expect them to find each other (and form) in a week's time? Probably.

Out wide Mvovo looked dangerous enough and JPP went looking for work while Le Roux is keeping up his downward spiral. I am massively happy Combrinck at least is on the bench. Looking at the back three I feel Le Roux is the weakest. I hope Combrinck gets a decent amount of time and hopefully at 15 so we can see we have options beyond Le Roux who's idea of play making in closing down the space for the man outside him by running laterally and then handing him a hospital pass more often than anything else.
 
Yeah look, AC is sticking to his original plan, and you have to give kudo's to him for that. I'm very happy for Combrink and Mostert getting the nod, but I'm angry that Jaco Kriel is not picked. Of all the guys there, he deserves his chance the most.

We know what went wrong last week, and it's something we can work with. And a wounded Bok is a dangerous animal.

I can't wait for tomorrow! Me and my friends and brothers are departing 9am tomorrow morning in a bus to Ellis Park. It's gonne be a Superfun day!
 
SA looked much worse than the score suggested last Saturday. To basically keep the same team, shows Allister's got an Ostrich mentality, by sticking his head in a hole in the ground and hoping no-one can see him. If we lose this test we lose the series.

So no, not giving him Kudos. I'm calling him an idiot. Even if we win by 50, he's still an idiot. Because he's gambling with everything the Springbok emblem ever stood for.
Idiot is not the word, but I'll be banned if I use the words I want to.
 
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TRF_stormer2010 said:
I'm not particularly pleased or displeased with the Bok selection;

In the front row Malherbe gets a chance to redeem himself but the position I am more concerned with is hooker. Strauss is probably the 3rd best hooker in SA ATM (not counting our foreign based guys here) and is only there based on experience and experience in a leadership role. I don't rate him as a captain TBH and feel he doesn't have the presence a hooker like Bismarck had and has lost his running game which is what made him a good option as a bench hooker. Mbonambi is there for political reasons plain and simple. Even a reasonable person can't give him the benefit of the doubt. This is a weak spot whereas it used to be a strength.

Locks are solid. Du Toit starting and De Jager dropped with Mostert coming in is a good call on form. We have depth here and can afford to make the call on form rather than rep/caps.

I'm very much underwhelmed with our backrow. Louw is like our 3rd best openside behind Coetzee (okay, so he's injured) and Kriel who just can't seem to catch a break. Starting Whitely with Kriel on the bench could've worked here IMO but we'll never know. Louw and Vermeulen just aren't up to speed.

Faf had a decent game last week. Here's hoping he can build on it. With Lambie out our hand is forced but I'm sure Jantjies should do well at home.

Centers were a weak point last week. Its a new combination, Mapoe has to adapt to test rugby and De Allende is off form. We all knew this going into last week but were hoping they could 'come right' because if they can they could be a lethal combo. Is it naive to expect them to find each other (and form) in a week's time? Probably.

Out wide Mvovo looked dangerous enough and JPP went looking for work while Le Roux is keeping up his downward spiral. I am massively happy Combrinck at least is on the bench. Looking at the back three I feel Le Roux is the weakest. I hope Combrinck gets a decent amount of time and hopefully at 15 so we can see we have options beyond Le Roux who's idea of play making in closing down the space for the man outside him by running laterally and then handing him a hospital pass more often than anything else.
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Is that the common perception in SA?

I'm interested to hear how he's viewed by you guys, I'm a huge admirer of him at Bath, he's one of those players who always looks a step above everyone else - and one of those who, when the rest of the team are playing poorly, often seems to be fighting on his own to stem the tide.

Watching him internationally I've always rated him highly too, but admit there could well be some bias in there. Do you think he's just on poor form at the moment, or has he not been the best openside for some time?
 
Every Time Ref said:
Is that the common perception in SA?

I'm interested to hear how he's viewed by you guys, I'm a huge admirer of him at Bath, he's one of those players who always looks a step above everyone else - and one of those who, when the rest of the team are playing poorly, often seems to be fighting on his own to stem the tide.

Watching him internationally I've always rated him highly too, but admit there could well be some bias in there. Do you think he's just on poor form at the moment, or has he not been the best openside for some time?
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I can''t say whether its the general perception in SA but it is in my 'circle'. Some of the other SA posters, how do you rate our openside options?

Me personally I rate Jaco Kriel as our top openside and even top rugby player overall ATM (and for the last 2 years though 2 years ago it was 50/50 between him and De Allende for match impact). He is a player that will only be effective if we play the right kind of rugby though, the rugby the public is pushing for and that is with width and pace. He isn't the biggest SA loosie but fast and hard as nails despite his lack of size. He is SA's version of Michael Hooper/Ardie Savea ITO the way they play the game and physically somewhat similar even if Hooper is a tad 'stockier'.

Coetzee has been in great form as well. The thing is he is serially injured. He'd probably have gotten the nod over the other two because he has the test experience but is also based in SA. He also has a proven record of being impactful in closer encounters whereas Kriel is of course a bit of a question mark when it comes to test rugby simply because he hasn't had the chance yet and the Lions tend to play a high tempo game with a lot of emphsis on width and mobility which is not the way the Bokk play or have played fr a good long while.

Don't get me wrong its not that I don't rate Louw but to a large degree I question whether he fits into the game we (the demanding public) want to play. Also, him being based abroad means its very much a case of out of sight out of mind which will have his rep in SA take hits whether thats fair or not. In general there is also a feeling that SA needs to stem the tide of our players leaving en masse which will count against him as we look to home based player first more and more.

I think what I'm getting at is that if we are wanting to stay with Louw then we have to go for players like Vermeulen (Daniel du Preez), Bismarck (Malcolm Marx as long term replacement), Frans and Morne Steyn, Habana, JPP, Lambie at 15 etc. IE, workrate, power, strangling defense and territorial dominance. But we are halfway to the other side with our backline and 1/3 of our forwards but then if we want to play rugby with the ball we need the likes of Kriel, Whiteley and the Lions front row in there to have that mobility and fitness in the forwards to be able to back up the wider channels. IE Louw is the better player for the rugby we played while the other options are better for what we are wanting to do.
 
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Every Time Ref said:
Is that the common perception in SA?

I'm interested to hear how he's viewed by you guys, I'm a huge admirer of him at Bath, he's one of those players who always looks a step above everyone else - and one of those who, when the rest of the team are playing poorly, often seems to be fighting on his own to stem the tide.

Watching him internationally I've always rated him highly too, but admit there could well be some bias in there. Do you think he's just on poor form at the moment, or has he not been the best openside for some time?
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No it's not a common perception.

For me our best openside Flankers are Francois Louw and Heinrich Brussouw. I don't see Jaco Kriel as an openside flanker in the way I see the aforementioned fellows. To me Kriel isn't such a good pilferer as what Louw and Brussouw is, but his mobility, strength and ball carrying skills are top class. Francois Louw in my view is a contender to be AC's long term captain, if Louw can be persuaded to return to South Africa, and if he can get his form back, then he'll be one of the few guys who would be able to cement his position in the Bok-team.
 
For me his game reading ability and knack for being in the right place at the right time and then doing the right thing is what makes him stand out at Bath, he also has a great work rate and is really good over the ball. At Bath I see him as a very complete player, as well as the physical stuff his link play is really good, he can carry tight and loose and has really good hands, capable of putting a man into space with a well-timed pass.

I think the latter aspects don't get shown so much playing for SA, would you guys agree? Not sure whether it's the style SA play or whether it's simply that a step up in standard makes everything more difficult so he focuses on his core skillset more.

I obviously watch a lot more of Bath than i do of South Africa anyway, so I'm more familiar with him as a Bath player than as a Bok. I can never get used to seeing him with a 6 on his back!
 
I still rate both Vermulen and Louw despite their quiet performances last week, the Ireland game is just about the only time they've let me down.

I honestly feel that Coetzee keeping continuity is the right call, if we make wholesale changes for this test we risk finding ourselves in the same position we did last week, with next to brand new combinations that have no chemistry.
One game is not enough to judge any given player in my opinion, give them a chance and if we crash and brun in this series, maybe then it's time to reassess.

Remember everyone loves the Lions now, but it took them 4 seasons of getting battered before they developed into the force they are today, same goes for the Hurricanes. These systems and styles of play don't happen over night.
 
Can SA improve that much in a week? What sort of gameplan are they going to use again Ireland this week? IMO, they looked confused last weekend and I can't see them getting all those little errors out of their system in a week. They should improve but by how much.


Mumbles119 said:
http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_...wer-scott-robertson-named-new-crusaders-coach

Does this mean Schmidt is staying now? Or will it be with another NZ franchise?
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From his interviews today it sounds like he is staying. Interesting timing!
 
profitius said:
Can SA improve that much in a week? What sort of gameplan are they going to use again Ireland this week? IMO, they looked confused last weekend and I can't see them getting all those little errors out of their system in a week. They should improve but by how much.
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Well, no one can really say as it was ACs first game as coach, a new look team playing their first game since WC and an apparent attempt at expansive play. What I can say is that AC has basically said in the media that he can excuse the lack of cohesion due to it being a relatively inexperienced team (playing together not international experience) but there us no excuse for the strings of basic errors and penalties and has brought back "the springbok fine system" to sort out the ill discipline. I'm not really in agreement with fining players for making mistakes, there may be an argument for yellow/reds but basic penalties? All I know is that Malherbe would be a broke man if this was the case last week. Anyways, the coach has had strong words towards the players in the media.

http://www.sport24.co.za/rugby/springboks/bok-coach-sounds-warning-to-players-20160617?mobile=true
http://www.sport24.co.za/rugby/springboks/bok-coach-sounds-warning-to-players-20160617?mobile=true

(sorry if they're mobile links, I use my phone for forum posts)
 
Yup I'd expect them to be more clinical today. Hopfully Ireland can get more ball to attack with.

I'm looking forward to seeing Olding today. He is an x factor player who can bring some unpredictability to the attack.
 

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