[RWC2019][The Final] England vs. South Africa (02/11/2019)

[Jer1cho]

I reckon England will beat us. It is England's to lose more than anything. I am already overjoyed that the Boks are back. In the unlikely event that we pull off victory, I will be ecstatic.

Yep I share your sentiments. I also think England will win. I just hope we make it an 80 minute game. I don't want us to be dead and buried at half time. Much as I am proud of the Boks I just don't feel like we are 'meant' to win this one. Course if im wrong and we do I will basically fill my pool with Klipdrift and spend the week in it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah many are saying it England's best ever performance but then there was this game and infamous 6 man scrum.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/international/2982490.stm

"What was going through your head during that 6 man scrum?"
"My spine"

 

[RedruthRFC]

Please don't take the period under Allister Coetzee into account. We are a completely different team.

But what will be fresh in our minds is that game last year at Twickers with the Owen Farrell Tackle at the end of the match. And believe me when I tell you, that loss will be used as motivation for this team for this match. Farrell will also be a target (even though I doubt that there will be anything sinister about it).

If you don't take the Coetzee era in to account, the record is 100% in England's favour! I believe that ncurd was only making a pont in response to some spin, not saying that there is great significance in them. The only way that it would be significant to me is if England had a dominant record like they do over the Aussies. If that were to be the case, I think that you could simply strike them from the record based on the changes that have been made since. I don't buy that player's psyches work like that.

I think we've been through your other point before. If you're right in what you say, and I assume you have some sort of inside information because you said "believe me", I'd stick that in the positives column for England. If the opportunity to win a world cup doesn't serve as all the motivation a team needs, they're collectively in a terrible mental place. If they allow this to affect their approach to the game rather than assessing it on their merits, all the better for their opponents. I don't recall any evidence so far this World Cup of Farrell being a cheap card risk, so running short, dipping players up his channel for the sake of it seems like a fruitless endevour. I can see merit in this approach on the basis that he is inclined to rush. I hope that my memory is serving me correctly when I say that this is more of a problem when he's defending at 10. If SA want to allow history to cloud their judgement and send juggernauts running at him all afternoon on some sort of misguided revenge mission, that's fine by me.

 

[ncurd]

If you don't take the Coetzee era in to account, the record is 100% in England's favour! I believe that ncurd was only making a pont in response to some spin, not saying that there is great significance in them. The only way that it would be significant to me is if England had a dominant record like they do over the Aussies. If that were to be the case, I think that you could simply strike them from the record based on the changes that have been made since. I don't buy that player's psyches work like that.

Aye it was in response to someone say SA had our number for the past decade or so which when you narrowed it down to this cycle only . I use RWC cycles mainly because that constitutes the biggest personnel changes a team can go through it more than fair to say SA are only a 2 year team because Coetzee was an unbelievably shite coach but England are a 4 year team due to EJ making comparing them very hard in terms of performances.

Anyway point was to demonstrate SA don't have the dominance over us that they did 2006-2016.

 

[TRF_heineken]

If you don't take the Coetzee era in to account, the record is 100% in England's favour! I believe that ncurd was only making a pont in response to some spin, not saying that there is great significance in them. The only way that it would be significant to me is if England had a dominant record like they do over the Aussies. If that were to be the case, I think that you could simply strike them from the record based on the changes that have been made since. I don't buy that player's psyches work like that.

Rassie's first game as coach was last year prior to the England incoming series against Wales in Washington DC... AC was sacked end of 2017.

I think we've been through your other point before. If you're right in what you say, and I assume you have some sort of inside information because you said "believe me", I'd stick that in the positives column for England. If the opportunity to win a world cup doesn't serve as all the motivation a team needs, they're collectively in a terrible mental place. If they allow this to affect their approach to the game rather than assessing it on their merits, all the better for their opponents. I don't recall any evidence so far this World Cup of Farrell being a cheap card risk, so running short, dipping players up his channel for the sake of it seems like a fruitless endevour. I can see merit in this approach on the basis that he is inclined to rush. I hope that my memory is serving me correctly when I say that this is more of a problem when he's defending at 10. If SA want to allow history to cloud their judgement and send juggernauts running at him all afternoon on some sort of misguided revenge mission, that's fine by me.

What I mean by believe me, is that I'm a South African, and I know how us afrikaans speaking guys get motivated, especially in Rugby. I've been to a few functions where former Springbok players are guest speakers, and what they tell us happening behind closed doors, makes me believe that at some point, the Owen Farrell debacle will be a topic of conversation, to give the guys just that little bit of an extra push towards motivation.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Always makes me laugh when people are like "STICK THAT ON THE DRESSING ROOM WALL, THERES YOUR MOTIVATION". Didn't work too well for the Argentinians bleating all week about English history and going to "war".

These players won't give a single **** about Farrell's tackle. He's done nothing even remotely vaguely controversial this tournament, so hinging your hopes on him doing an illegal shot is gonna end in heartbreak.

 

[ncurd]

These players won't give a single **** about Farrell's tackle. He's done nothing even remotely vaguely controversial this tournament, so hinging your hopes on him doing an illegal shot is gonna end in heartbreak.

EJ's going to show them the replay footage of Cueto all week which was inconclusive at the time.

"Remember when you got robbed of a world cup 12 years ago when all of you were still in school? THERES YOUR MOTIVATION"

 

[TRF_Olyy]

EJ's going to show them the replay footage of Cueto all week which was inconclusive at the time.

Rassie's speech is already written.
"Remember when you got robbed of a world cup 12 years ago when all of you were still in school? THERES YOUR MOTIVATION"

"Remember that time Owen Farrell viciously atttacked Brits fist with his face when he was a teenager, the dirty English ******* - get out there and show him who's boss"

 

[RedruthRFC]

Rassie's first game as coach was last year prior to the England incoming series against Wales in Washington DC... AC was sacked end of 2017.

My bad, Wikipedia said AC was still in place in 2018, so I assumed that he was there for the England tour (which somehow in my head seemed like ages ago anyway).

What I mean by believe me, is that I'm a South African, and I know how us afrikaans speaking guys get motivated, especially in Rugby. I've been to a few functions where former Springbok players are guest speakers, and what they tell us happening behind closed doors, makes me believe that at some point, the Owen Farrell debacle will be a topic of conversation, to give the guys just that little bit of an extra push towards motivation.

What era were those players from? It strikes me as a very amateur era (i.e. before rugby became properly professional) sort of thing, but maybe I'm wrong - there still appear to be plenty of macho meathead types in the game, even if the management have moved past it, maybe the attitude is hard to coach out of players.

 

[Gena_ZA]

Can't believe that it's being suggested by anyone that NZ failed to perform and that's why England won. (Brace for arrogance) the reason England won that semi was because we were bloody excellent. Simple as. Right from the Haka to the last whistle we had NZs number and had them beat in nearly every single position. It was arguably the greatest performance of any England team and finally demonstrated what that group of players is capable of when it all clicks. And Jones is right, they still haven't peaked. There were little errors that can be ironed out and chances not taken. These lads have proven to themselves and the world what they are capable of. Now they need to demonstrate that this is their new normal. That this is just how England play now. This final isn't just about winning the World Cup. It could be about the beginning of a great dynasty of English rugby. Much of this team are still young with years left on the clock with plenty of talent waiting in the wings to carry on the legacy. But we've all seen far too many English false dawns, only time will now tell if our day has finally come.

Assuming we do carry this form into the final SA would need a huge step up to compete. Certainly Erasmus has dragged them from the mire but they are a long way off a finished article.

but this is a final. Margins will be small, pressure white hot, and it could all come down to the bounce of a ball, an silly error, or a dreaded drop goal. Whatever I expect it to be something special.

Very good write up and chuffed to see the appreciation of them and optimism for the future of English rugby.
One thing to remember (everyone) is no matter what high any team is on, playing the game the rugby gods themselves would OR the team that play the opposition on the day, that game plan for that day, ugly AF, just to win
Both of them will face off between four white lines and give their all for 80 minutes
There will be no advantage to anyone, no pedigree, no history..
Just an oval ball

Bring it

 

[RedruthRFC]

Always makes me laugh when people are like "STICK THAT ON THE DRESSING ROOM WALL, THERES YOUR MOTIVATION". Didn't work too well for the Argentinians bleating all week about English history and going to "war".

These players won't give a single **** about Farrell's tackle. He's done nothing even remotely vaguely controversial this tournament, so hinging your hopes on him doing an illegal shot is gonna end in heartbreak.

If (big if), some of the posts we got on here were indicative the attitude within the Argentinian camp, the way things panned out is a prime example of what I've said in the past about the motivational bell curve. Lavanini was way past the peak and so far down the other side that he cost his team a chance of winning the game.

 

[Goodey]

Yeah many are saying it England's best ever performance but then there was this game and infamous 6 man scrum.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/international/2982490.stm

Starts at about 58 minutes...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Always makes me laugh when people are like "STICK THAT ON THE DRESSING ROOM WALL, THERES YOUR MOTIVATION". Didn't work too well for the Argentinians bleating all week about English history and going to "war".

These players won't give a single **** about Farrell's tackle. He's done nothing even remotely vaguely controversial this tournament, so hinging your hopes on him doing an illegal shot is gonna end in heartbreak.

If anything it has a habit of backfiring when used on a team who aren't exactly known for keeping their tempers in check. This is the professional era and I imagine most coaches are telling their teams to keep focused, keep their heads and keep cool, not to go out all worked up and full of anger. Also given SA's history of being shall we say not the most clean team on the planet, it would be kinda laughable for some foul play to really serve as any sort of motivation. I mean SA have Etzebeth and the reputation for having some of the dirtiest players to ever play rugby.

Not saying the current crop are dirty but it's very pot-kettle for them to particularly whinge about anything anyone else did, specifically a single incident that was almost certainly a reckless accident rather than a pre-meditated act of foul play.

 

[spartan32]

I agree with some of the above. Not sure EJ or Erasmus are going to be "motivating" their players with old rivalries, incidents etc. This is the pro era. Focus will be on the game, the skills, the plan and execution. I think England's mentality through this tournament has been excellent. I was actually really impressed with how they didn't over celebrate the win last week. It was just another game on the route to the prize. Yes a big one, but ultimately will mean little if they don't lift the cup. They all seemed very controlled and focused with minds already on the next job, the last job. Shows how far they've come.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[spartan32]

On another note. I'm going to be in Franschhoek for the big day. Any recommendations from the Saffers out there of a place to watch the game?

 

[HERSH_606er]

Is there any plans for a fanzone in London? I guess there will be a knees up in Trafalgar square after the game?

Fingers crossed!

 

[ncurd]

Is there any plans for a fanzone in London? I guess there will be a knees up in Trafalgar square after the game?

Fingers crossed!

Honestly don't know, back in 2003 I froze my arse off there for the bus tour. Worth skipping a day of university to be there.

 

[unrated]

Just heard John smit say on nz rugby program the breakdown that the Springbok defence was so ferocious with the gain line the Wales only averaged 1.6m per run which according to them was the least ever in a world Cup game. Thank god for some positivity with all the shooting down of the South African team. Getting more confident by the day. I for one will be absolutely gutted if we lose the final. ONLY the final is not good enough


If a nz poster who has playback abilities for this program can please watch the program again and double fact check this statement that would be appreciated

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think England's mentality through this tournament has been excellent. I was actually really impressed with how they didn't over celebrate the win last week.

I was pleased by the lack of a massive celebration last week, but it's not something I can get too excitied about. It's an obvious psychological point, which explains the coverage that it has received, but that being the case, I'd imagine that it was something that had been talked about before the match. Fair play to the players for sticking to the plan though.

What has impressed me is the demeanour of the players and I've been surprised how little comment it has received here or elsewhere. There seems to be a collective awareness within the team of the need to stay in the right mental state (I don't know how better to express what I mean). There's no more seal impressions from Itoje, Sinkler kept his cool when things could have gone Wales shaped against Australia (thanks in part to team mates being aware of the potential and keeping an eye on him), no more Marler getting carried away, pats on the back for players who have made mistakes and recognition of positive contributions without going over the top. Whoever is responsible for instigating this change in attitude deserves a big pat on the back.

On the amateur sports psychology theme, you could argue that the England team had become a bit of a personification of Eddie Jones' mindset. They seem much better off for winding it in a few notches.