[RWC2019][The Final] England vs. South Africa (02/11/2019)

[Leonormous Boozer]

I've said before I'd stop the rankings at the warms ups and reset the rankings post world cup and give people starting points based on where they finished. That way teams won't have ridiculous cushions based on past successes when they likely about to have huge personel changes.

Definitely wouldn't have them for the warm ups but I think weighting the world cup higher is enough, resetting them would be tough considering the seeding date isn't far away and the top 4 get a considerable bumb anyway.

 

[ncurd]

Definitely wouldn't have them for the warm ups but I think weighting the world cup higher is enough, resetting them would be tough considering the seeding date isn't far away and the top 4 get a considerable bumb anyway.

Seeding shouldn't happen to 1 year before the event which is a tangential but associated arguement.

 

[TRF_heineken]

You'd be in a small minority, I think!

To put it another way, if South Africa lose tomorrow have they had a better world cup than New Zealand? I don't think so, they lost the match between the two and lost to the same team NZ did, the only point of difference was a win over Japan v a win over Ireland which doesn't really do anything to reverse a head to head loss.

If England lose tomorrow they obviously lose the claim to be world number one and then you have to rank them against NZ, NZ have lost 6 times in this world cup cycle, England have lost 9 (ignoring warm ups) it'd be the same number of losses and draws this year while England lost three times more last year. I don't see how one victory over them should see you ahead in the rankings when they were so far ahead of you at the start of the year and the tournament.

I think the rankings get unfair criticism, apart from going mental around world cup warm ups they're generally a fair reflection at the end of an international period.

These kinds of comparisons is what irritates me. Especially in a World Cup.

Yes, NZ beat us. but it was a pool game. The first actual pool game when all the teams were nervous as hell, still getting used to conditions, lots of errors, and hunting bonus points to qualify for the playoffs.

To compare that to a playoff game where the teams are more used to conditions, the game plans have fallen in place, guys are on top form and just hunting a win is an incomparable difference IMHO.

But everyone makes this comparison because NZ is the nexus. If it was any other team, these comparisons would not have been made at all. NZ have beaten SA and England in the past 2 years, and SA and England have beaten NZ in the past 2 years. So what???

 

[unrated]

I've said before I'd stop the rankings at the warms ups and reset the rankings post world cup and give people starting points based on where they finished. That way teams won't have ridiculous cushions based on past successes when they likely about to have huge personel changes.

How will teams last in their group be ranked? There are four last place finishers. There are four third place finishers. How will they be ranked? That's why this can't work

 

[ncurd]

How will teams last in their group be ranked? There are four last place finishers. There are four third place finishers. How will they be ranked? That's why this can't work

World Rugby give them an official finishing position....its not that hard.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

These kinds of comparisons is what irritates me. Especially in a World Cup.

Yes, NZ beat us. but it was a pool game. The first actual pool game when all the teams were nervous as hell, still getting used to conditions, lots of errors, and hunting bonus points to qualify for the playoffs.

To compare that to a playoff game where the teams are more used to conditions, the game plans have fallen in place, guys are on top form and just hunting a win is an incomparable difference IMHO.

But everyone makes this comparison because NZ is the nexus. If it was any other team, these comparisons would not have been made at all. NZ have beaten SA and England in the past 2 years, and SA and England have beaten NZ in the past 2 years. So what???

"If SA lose tomorrow" is a fairly big caveat there I think you're ignoring.

 

[TRF_heineken]

"If SA lose tomorrow" is a fairly big caveat there I think you're ignoring.

Yeah yeah, I get that. But why draw this comparison in the first place? We're in the final. Nobody can take that away from us, no matter how we got there, we're there. We outwitted, Outlasted and to an extent, Outplayed our fellow Survivor Rugby Nations to be where we are. And our torch is still burning.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah yeah, I get that. But why draw this comparison in the first place? We're in the final. Nobody can take that away from us, no matter how we got there, we're there. We outwitted, Outlasted and to an extent, Outplayed our fellow Survivor Rugby Nations to be where we are. And our torch is still burning.

It was in response to saying that NZ being second in the rankings despite tomorrow's result is nonsense. I'm not taking anything away from SA, if they win tomorrow they're deserved RWC winners for all the reasons you've just mentioned.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Is there still another game or something? What's this one about?

 

[Reiser99]

Is there still another game or something? What's this one about?

This match is for four years of bragging rights.

 

[ncurd]

 

[Goodey]

 

[TommiG88]

Getting a tad excited now. The work motivation has tailed off.

 

[Jer1cho]

Really disliked Farrel. But now I read an article about his 'JJ' symbol he makes after scoring points. Damn now I feel bad about disliking him.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Practising DGs? Better late than never if so, I mean it's not like either of these teams has ever needed a DG to win a RWC.

The numbers are extraordinary.

St Jonny of Wilkinson hit 36 in 91 tests.

Faz has 3 in 78

Ford has 2 in 64

Pollard has 4 in 47

At club level Ford can muster 10 and Faz 2.

I know the game's changed, but matches are still tight and scoreboard pressure still matters.

Oh God, I'm now seeing us 2 points down with a minute to go and Ford sliding a DG past the post from straight in front in the 22. The voices....

 

[Goodey]

A lot has changed in the last 15 years to make drop goals less of an option as well as them just falling out of fashion. Bigger, longer penalty advantages and more yellow cards for defending teams especially.

 

[duncanb]

Just a side note on Final if England win as the France match was called off.
Will this be the First team to be crowned champions without beating someone from own domain.
As Englands route will have been.
Tonga
USA
Argentina.
Australia.
New Zealand.
South Africa?
Also will a winner from SH have beaten all 5 or 6 nations teams to do so.
I tried a quick google but failed to find all results from previous tournaments.

 

[ncurd]

Also will a winner from SH have beaten all 5 or 6 nations teams to do so.
I tried a quick google but failed to find all results from previous tournaments.

It's unlikely...you require 2 6N teams in your group and then only play them in knock outs.

Having checked I categorically say it's never happened.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Just a side note on Final if England win as the France match was called off.
Will this be the First team to be crowned champions without beating someone from own domain.
As Englands route will have been.
Tonga
USA
Argentina.
Australia.
New Zealand.
South Africa?
Also will a winner from SH have beaten all 5 or 6 nations teams to do so.
I tried a quick google but failed to find all results from previous tournaments.

We'd also join Aus as the only multiple winners to have always won away from their own continent. One of SA's was at home and 2 of NZ's.

 

[NickBD]

I don't know for certain but in terms of our panel it'll be Woodward (useless), Wilko (correct but boring) and I suspect Pienaar as the lonely SA voice but he's usually quite measured and good at providing the same sort of role as I imagine Guscott is.

I would assume it would be Habana as he's been the SA pundit for ITV. Could be wrong. Really wish they'd drop one of Wilko or Sir Clive for a neutral like O'Driscoll or O'Connell. Not just because both are superior pundits but you'd like a bit of balance.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If we do win do we get the Rugby Championship trophy as well, seeing as we'll have won that Grandslam over the course of the tournament

I would assume it would be Habana as he's been the SA pundit for ITV. Could be wrong. Really wish they'd drop one of Wilko or Sir Clive for a neutral like O'Driscoll or O'Connell. Not just because both are superior pundits but you'd like a bit of balance.

POC is class and would give a better insight into what will likely be a forwards heavy contest.