[RWC2019][The Final] England vs. South Africa (02/11/2019)

[Bada-Bing!]

I said SA would win after 30 seconds

and someone disliked it.....

didn't you @The_Blindside

pfft you still going to hold that a against me. FFS I made up for it by liking two of your subsequent posts. Net result +1.

 

[Between the Posts]

Before the tournament if I had been told England would reach the semi's after beating Australia and NZ I would probably have been happy with that. Especially as I thought we would lose to NZ.

I caught a fair bit of Wales against SA and then thought England would need to change their game plan to beat SA. I also thought EJ was the man to do that.

Having picked a certain team and having Sinckler K.O and then being bullied in the scrum would have led me to expect Marler coming on quickly yet he didn't and we started conceding penalties from the scrum and handling errors.

To make it worse we also lost our lineout though the players corrected that during the first half.

In fact at half time despite the set piece domination by SA we were still in the game.

EJ did not make the necessary changes and we continued to concede points and if it hadn't been for Farrell's kicks SA would have been out of sight. We had that 26 phase in their half where their defence was magnificent though perhaps Sinckler would have been that man to conjure something on another day.

Then we had the Daly horror show and other errors and by the 65th minute it was effectively over. I thought there was a forward pass in the build up to one of their tries yet they earned the victory.

Not sure now on EJ, done magnificently getting us to the final yet couldn't change our performance when we were under pressure. He also did not adjust the squad for South Africa seemed to be too loyal for the players that had brought him this far rather than realising SA's technical ability would expose some of our players.

Imponderable - Garces - several decisions were baffling.

 

[saulan]

Well the airport is packed for Kolisi and Rassie to touch down with the cup.

Livestream of the airport here for anyone interested in seeing what it means in SA:

 

[TheOvalBall]

Eben Etzebeth being booed. What a disgrace.

 

[saulan]

Eben Etzebeth being booed. What a disgrace.

was he being booed or were they calling Beast? Stopped watching so don't know at which part that happened, but know they were calling Beast as he walked out.

 

[Five Meters Out]

If Wales had edged out SA in semi, Wales would be world champions now.

...and if my Aunty was a man, she'd bee my Uncle.

 

[Saint Matt]

In reality, the game was won and lost in both the air and the scrum. When you lose those two areas, you're going to find it not far from impossible to win. Particularly with the scrum, when your scrum is being torn apart like that, the knock on effect physiologically is enormous, as well as the effect on the scoreboard and it goes through the team. Every player is impacted by it. It's always there in the back of your mind. So you have to congratulate South Africa on that. You then add a few lineout losses to that and a couple of strong mauls from South Africa as well and you've just got no chance. We just couldn't seem to win the ball in the air either, against NZ it felt like we were dominant there.

Second half we made some changes and it looked as though the game was swinging a bit. But then we knock on in the corner, we drop a restart, we give an obstruction penalty away which gives South Africa field position and that ultimately leads to the winning try. I thought we looked frantic and panicky which again is a knock in effect from losing the set piece.

For me though, the mental impact that the scrum had on the game was the difference. We just never recovered from that.

Also thought the whole bus turning up late thing was poor as well. Just shouldn't happen.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In reality, the game was won and lost in both the air and the scrum. When you lose those two areas, you're going to find it not far from impossible to win. Particularly with the scrum, when your scrum is being torn apart like that, the knock on effect physiologically is enormous, as well as the effect on the scoreboard and it goes through the team. Every player is impacted by it. It's always there in the back of your mind. So you have to congratulate South Africa on that. You then add a few lineout losses to that and a couple of strong mauls from South Africa as well and you've just got no chance. We just couldn't seem to win the ball in the air either, against NZ it felt like we were dominant there.

Second half we made some changes and it looked as though the game was swinging a bit. But then we knock on in the corner, we drop a restart, we give an obstruction penalty away which gives South Africa field position and that ultimately leads to the winning try. I thought we looked frantic and panicky which again is a knock in effect from losing the set piece.

For me though, the mental impact that the scrum had on the game was the difference. We just never recovered from that.

Also thought the whole bus turning up late thing was poor as well. Just shouldn't happen.

Agreed, never underestimate the impact that a crumpled scrum can have on the wider game.

The bus shouldn't have been held up. It would though have been pretty wet to partly blame that especially as Jones has made a big thing of preparing the players for exactly that kind of thing. And in fairness I haven't heard any complaints from Eng.

 

[Scotty]

In 2015 We were the only team who gave the AB's a run, losing by 2 points that even required an AB drop goal. Everyone forgot about that real quick. Though the Japan loss might have had a lot to do with that lol.

Also paints a picture with this image. Clinical.

Has anyone got a pic like this for england with stats?

 

[justanargie]

Firstly, congrats to our big brother SA, if there is any team I wanted to win this cup (besides ours haha) was them...

Excellent final play from them. Agree that the scrum was one of the most important factors of it, actually, I don't understand why EJ didn't substitute Marler earlier when they were going backwards.
Moreover, I think they have chances to edge it until Farrel missed that kick; this was the game changer imho.
Besides the set pieces or the battle of fowards, the battle of 10 was also won by far by Pollard, one of the most underrated players imo, and Ford was poor. Pity they didn't give the other backs more prominence in the game plan who showed they can score tries.
But finally, to be fair, I didn't understand what was EJ game plan either, because England always stick to a plan and execute it very precisly no matter final result. Especially considering SA are one of the most predictable team, I think they were just reacting like wales to Rassie's one. Maybe they were just outplayed by a better team, so credits to the Bocks in that case.

Have to be honest, didn't read the whole thread, but glad not to see comments about the ref who made a good job. And get rid of the choking and hating issue, it's just nonsense.

Again, congrats to SA and especially their posters, always a good reading. Can't wait for next SR, proud to play with the champs in our conference!

 

[ncurd]

Still wondering what would of happened if England hadn't committed so many handling errors in the first half. Don't really think that was SA pressure and our own inaccuracies. However its quite clear that led to the many scrums, that led to the penalties, that led to the scoreboard pressure, that led to SA being able to exert dominance.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Still wondering what would of happened if England hadn't committed so many handling errors in the first half. Don't really think that was SA pressure and our own inaccuracies. However its quite clear that led to the many scrums, that led to the penalties, that led to the scoreboard pressure, that led to SA being able to exert dominance.

You got to remember it was a World Cup final that in itself made England players pretty nervous in the first half hour. You just can't legislate for nerves for such a big match and what was at stake. That was all part of the pressure created internally. Compare to 2003 and conceding the early try but that team was so well drilled to recover from a poor start. This team hasn't built that resilience yet. The Boks handled the pressure a lot better.

 

[Between the Posts]

Chaps, looking for some clarification when you talk about losing the game in 'the air', what is meant?

To me it might be the kicking and catching part of the game or the lineouts.

 

[Scotty]

Chaps, looking for some clarification when you talk about losing the game in 'the air', what is meant?

To me it might be the kicking and catching part of the game or the lineouts.

being pinned back or beaten by the kick chase so cant mount a good attack or gain territory. We did lost the set piece battle too completly

 

[ThebigARena]

Too many "what ifs " going on this thread . Firstly we had too many close calls and to lose against the World Champions is nothing we can complain about.
England as I mentioned underestimated the boks power and maybe (should) of started Marler but didn't and ultimately their game plan fell short..

To say any team is irrelevant on the World Stage is quite frankly a ridiculous statement. Every team from Namibia to NZ is relevant and each team brought their own personality that made this a great World Cup .

Also SA were playing for more than just the Webb Ellis Cup it goes deeper and for the sake of hope and inspiration for a Country its why I feel SA were the right team to win this in 2019.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You got to remember it was a World Cup final that in itself made England players pretty nervous in the first half hour. You just can't legislate for nerves for such a big match and what was at stake. That was all part of the pressure created internally. Compare to 2003 and conceding the early try but that team was so well drilled to recover from a poor start. This team hasn't built that resilience yet. The Boks handled the pressure a lot better.

Can't argue with that.

One thing we've said consistently is that Eng lacks leadership throughout the team. I think that came through loud and clear.

Some calm heads and authoritative voices would surely have said to just play ourselves into the game for the first 15 or 20 mins before starting to think about being too clever.

 

[unrated]

Chaps, looking for some clarification when you talk about losing the game in 'the air', what is meant?

To me it might be the kicking and catching part of the game or the lineouts.

yea and contesting high balls, contesting the 50/50 box kicks

 

[Bristol Exile]

Some interesting talk of what ifs earlier. Us historians call them "counterfactuals" and they are often great fun but the problem is for every alternative thread you explore, others will often open up.

For all that it is always tempting to indulge in them and we should all be forgiven for doing so. What we should not do is mock them and make disparaging remarks about teams others support. I am sure there is a lot of England fans who have been musing on alternative scenarios and thinking...what if.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The "What ifs" regarding Wales are ridiculous. What if France kept their cool and Wales went out in the quarters? What if France then beat SA? What if England then tore France a new one? What if Wales beat SA but then England beat Wales as they did in the warm ups? What if the England side that beat the ABs turned up against SA, meaning the passes stuck and so there were far fewer scrums? What if England played worse against NZ and then went into the final as underdogs? What if Warren Gatland charged onto the pitch wielding a soap covered foamy thing that then spurred England on to victory?

What if what if what if.

Anyone who claims Wales would have won the world cup if only they beat SA forfeits the right to call the English arrogant. How many world cups have you now won if only you didn't lose?

 

[Bristol Exile]

Odd how some can construct alternative narratives that are positive for their teams and negative for others.

That is the natural way of things I suppose.

I do think Wales, even with their injuries (without, another counterfactul?) would have had a decent shot at England in the final and I think may well have won, although by less than SA. Only my opinion...

There has been lots of bemoaning of late buses, injury to Sinckler (ah the luxury on one solitary injury)

It is human nature, as is unconscious bias.