[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[Zootalaws]

the biggest shard of hope we have in our favour is the fact that many of our players are more talented than they are currently showing. There is, 1000%, more potential in these players.

Keeping 900% of your winning potential in reserve for the SF is a strategy so cunning you could put a brushy tail on it and call it Reynard.

To be honest, I never associated 'cunning' and 'Borthwick' in the same hemisphere. Just goes to show how deeply-hidden the plucky poms have kept their RWC strategy

<Golf Clap>

 

[Zootalaws]

Unless we witness a miracle, this will be too much for England. We're looking at a SA vs NZ final and I'm predicting NZ will lose due to their discipline.

You think NZ are less disciplined than RSA?

Stop bogarting whatever it is you're smoking.

 

[Zootalaws]

This is the Boks 8th RWC.

They have won every 3rd tournament like clockwork with the following 2 being a semi and a quarter before winning again.

1995 won followed by a semi and a quarter.

2007 won followed (just to mix it up) by a quarter and a semi.

2019 won followed by ? Well history tells us they must be going out in the semi in a repeat of the 95 cycle.

And then there's England's record of having won their last 3 semis - 03, 07 and 19. We've won 4 out of 5 semis in total so 80% success rate. The Boks have won 3 out of 5 - a mere 60%. And have the Boks ever beaten us in a semi - no they have not.

I'm amazed the Boks even think they have an earthly.

Bill is coming home. Arise Sir Steve!

Not going to bother with a final this year?

 

[Zootalaws]

I understand why people see it this way because it's the 2 countries that won 3 World Cups, which is the most by any team. But that can also be a reason to think it's a boring match-up.

I was honestly expecting Ireland-France with the way they've played and it would have been a great match-up for a final. Refreshing, neither team ever won it. It would have been great for the game

Interesting take: the two most dynamic, most winning, most competitive teams in world rugby are a 'boring match-up'

Two teams who've never won a WC getting through would be 'great for the game'

Consider why Ireland and France have never won a WC
Consider why spectators from all over the world make games where NZ and RSA compete the largest viewing spectacles in rugby
Which are the most-followed players and teams in social media (a hint, neither are, or play for, France or Ireland)

And last, but not least: the last time 'boring' NZ met 'boring' RSA in a RWC final was in 1995 - 28 years ago. It's the least predictable matchup - assuming both get through.



You're Dutch and your favourite team is the Sharks - you've had a serious head injury in the past, right?

 

[Zed]

I would say England are in a much better position than they were 6 months ago. 5 wins on the trot, albeit against tier 2 sides has given them a lot more self-belief and they generally seem to do OK at world cups. I reckon if England played SA 4 times on the trot, they would lose 3 and win 1. So they have a chance. If England play out of their skin, get some early points on the board and force SA into playing catchup rugby, they can snatch a win. They have a lot of good players in that side. But SA will have to have an off day. It does happen in knockout rugby. But if they bring their A game, they could win by 20 points.

 

[Jer1cho]

Boks unchanged for the Semi. Didn't see that coming really. I hope we havent blown our load a bit early. Gonna be a tough game this.

Springboks – 15 Damian Willemse, 14 Kurt-Lee Arendse, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Cheslin Kolbe, 10 Manie Libbok, 9 Cobus Reinach, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (c), 5 Franco Mostert, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Steven Kitshoff.
Subs: 16 Deon Fourie, 17 Ox Nche, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Faf de Klerk, 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Willie le Roux.

Old Rassie in the 1999 add haha.

 

[OllyM97]

Boks unchanged for the Semi. Didn't see that coming really. I hope we havent blown our load a bit early. Gonna be a tough game this.

Springboks – 15 Damian Willemse, 14 Kurt-Lee Arendse, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Cheslin Kolbe, 10 Manie Libbok, 9 Cobus Reinach, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (c), 5 Franco Mostert, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Steven Kitshoff.
Subs: 16 Deon Fourie, 17 Ox Nche, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Faf de Klerk, 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Willie le Roux.

Old Rassie in the 1999 add haha.

This is the time in the tournament where rotating your team for some of the group games looks a very good idea. Let's not forget also that SA had two weeks off between their last pool match and the QF. At the end of the day, a RWC semi-final is a huge game, no matter how good the opponent is. The Springboks, in my opinion, were always going to pick this side if everyone was fit. It's not a surprise.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Glad to see that we are seeing the pitfall of this semi. I agree that the risk is too big to not go full strength and obviously this is the side the coaches trust and they were happy with what Vermeulen (the one player I'd drop) added.

Also, I'd wager we might have the most well rested starting xv of any of the semi finalists so no real need to rotate further.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Boks unchanged for the Semi. Didn't see that coming really. I hope we havent blown our load a bit early. Gonna be a tough game this.

Springboks – 15 Damian Willemse, 14 Kurt-Lee Arendse, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Cheslin Kolbe, 10 Manie Libbok, 9 Cobus Reinach, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (c), 5 Franco Mostert, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Steven Kitshoff.
Subs: 16 Deon Fourie, 17 Ox Nche, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Faf de Klerk, 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Willie le Roux.

Old Rassie in the 1999 add haha.

It was fifty fifty for me whether they'd make more than minor changes or not (expected at least they'd have a 6-2 split). Glad they didn't because the all blacks didn't either. Didn't fancy worn out all blacks facing fresh boks. Less scared of the English.

 

[saulan]

Surprised Vermeulen stays in, but otherwise pretty much as expected. We rotated in the group stages, but I think we won't be changing much at all for this and our next game if we go through, if we are in 3rd/4th maybe we mix things around a bit.

 

[Jer1cho]

if we are in 3rd/4th

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's a very good Bok 23. Lots (and lots) of powerful, experienced forwards with some good backs with the option to play very different styles.

On paper there isn't a single unit where we're evidently stronger and the Boks bench is likely to be more impactful too.

If the Boks turn up, they win. We're not going to out think, out skill, out run or out muscle them. We'll be committed, but we're basically relying on the Boks to beat themselves by having a bad day at the office - which is perfectly possible and maybe a 1 in 5 chance.

 

[BrokenWing]

Glad to see that we are seeing the pitfall of this semi. I agree that the risk is too big to not go full strength and obviously this is the side the coaches trust and they were happy with what Vermeulen (the one player I'd drop) added.

Also, I'd wager we might have the most well rested starting xv of any of the semi finalists so no real need to rotate further.

I know SA are strong across the squad but I'd always start full strength. You can make changes early if it's comfortable and it's better than throwing players on hoping to change the game.

Does my head in when football managers rest their star players and then lose or draw games because they bring them on with 20 minutes to affect a game. Start them and take them off after they've made an impact.

 

[Half Pint]

It's gonna be wet and boggy, so either :
1) the rain will add some random elements, will act as a leveller, and it's a coin toss, or
2) there will be a *lot* of dropped balls, and hence a lot of scrums, which will favour the team with the best scrum and the devastating array of front-row subs on the bench
(no, I'm *not* talking about you, Bevan Rodd and Will Stuart)

 

[Zac_ETNZ]

Nice predictable SA selection showing a lot of respect for England. This is easily the tougher of the 2 semis to predict, depending on the game-plan England turn up with. If England drop off like they did against Fiji, they'll get blown off in the last 10 minutes.

I'm still going for SA to prevail..

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

This is easily the tougher of the 2 semis to predict

I agree - is it going to be 20 points or 40 points?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It's gonna be wet and boggy, so either :
1) the rain will add some random elements, will act as a leveller, and it's a coin toss, or
2) there will be a *lot* of dropped balls, and hence a lot of scrums, which will favour the team with the best scrum and the devastating array of front-row subs on the bench
(no, I'm *not* talking about you, Bevan Rodd and Will Stuart)

Probably a bit of both. I think though that O'Keefe doesn't always give you a penalty though at scrum time- and fair enough I suppose given the ball is available. Two times at least vs France and a few vs Ire as well he'd instructed the scrummie to play the ball rather than blow the whistle when the scrum went down with us clearly dominant.

 

[Jer1cho]

Probably a bit of both. I think though that O'Keefe doesn't always give you a penalty though at scrum time- and fair enough I suppose given the ball is available. Two times at least vs France and a few vs Ire as well he'd instructed the scrummie to play the ball rather than blow the whistle when the scrum went down with us clearly dominant.

He called the game exactly the same way as when we played Ireland. Worked him out for France

 

[Zac_ETNZ]

I agree - is it going to be 20 points or 40 points?

As much as we love seeing England struggle, they have a very proud never-give-up rugby attitude even when they're clearly out-skilled individually and collectively. You underestimate them at your risk. We did in 2003 when 14 of them beat us in Wellington before going on to win RWC.

They need to attack SA from the start and put them on the back foot defensively, and kick their penalties to keep the scoreboard ticking over. If they let SA dictate play from the start, it'll be a very long night for them which could translate to a 20+ points deficit.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Interesting take: the two most dynamic, most winning, most competitive teams in world rugby are a 'boring match-up'

Two teams who've never won a WC getting through would be 'great for the game'

Consider why Ireland and France have never won a WC
Consider why spectators from all over the world make games where NZ and RSA compete the largest viewing spectacles in rugby
Which are the most-followed players and teams in social media (a hint, neither are, or play for, France or Ireland)

And last, but not least: the last time 'boring' NZ met 'boring' RSA in a RWC final was in 1995 - 28 years ago. It's the least predictable matchup - assuming both get through.



You're Dutch and your favourite team is the Sharks - you've had a serious head injury in the past, right?

Yeah, no need to be an ass and try to insult me for simply stating a fact. A lot of rugby fans are tired of seeing the same two teams winning it. That has nothing to do with how good they are. The rugby isn't boring, the same two teams winning it, is.

And another thing: Me being Dutch has absolutely nothing to do with what I said here. But go on. Be a c.unt

No wonder so many people left this place.