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Spring Tour: South Africa v England -2nd Test. (16/06/2012 15:00GMT)

It will be interesting to see what sort of team South Africa puts out. You would have to think that with the series won you wouldn't want to risk anyone who was carrying even a slight injury, so we could see a number of changes as you suggest. Flip van der Merwe is obviously the next best lock, but given both he and Etzebeth are genuine tighthead locks I suppose we could see a debut for Franco van der Merwe (I'd prefer to see Flip though). Potgieter has the size and power to play a similar role to Alberts, but if they have an eye to the Rugby Championship I do wonder whether they will consider bringing in Daniels at 6 (and shifting Coetzee to 7). Daniels certainly isn't as pure 'fetcher' in the mold of Brussow or Pocock, but he is certainly better adapted to the 'traditional openside role' (which I believe will be required against NZ and Australia) than any of other squad options at the moment.

I can't see Morne Steyn being replaced (though I think it would be a good idea), and would be interested to see how Aplon goes if he plays at fullback. I'm not yet convinced about Aplon at fullback - he is a quality player no doubt, I'm just not sure whether he is a test fullback (he'd still be a better option than Kirchner though IMO....). I agree Frans Steyn would be the biggest loss to the team - not only because he is a quality player, but because their is no obvious replacement. Olivier could partner de Villiers, but he's only really been average at international level (I would have preferred de Jongh in the squad). I don't favour playing Pietersen at centre - he looks to be getting back to top form on the wing so I would leave him there (and playing wings at centre is seldom a good idea). I wonder whether we may see a test debut for JJ Engelbrecht (maybe from the bench)?

As much as it sounds like a better idea to play Daniel as fetcher, i thought the English pack showed on saturday that when Alberts and Kruger went off, our scrum became a bit light... Franco van Der Merwe and Keegan Daniel will certainly add mobility to the pack, but we'll lose strength and power...
 
As much as it sounds like a better idea to play Daniel as fetcher, i thought the English pack showed on saturday that when Alberts and Kruger went off, our scrum became a bit light... Franco van Der Merwe and Keegan Daniel will certainly add mobility to the pack, but we'll lose strength and power...

I don't know about that... remember that by that time England had on our first choice front row which has got the better of many many teams this year with the exception of Wales.
 
My take on the game.

As always when you play abroad its about controlling the first phase of the game (i.e 15 mins) and stabalising. We just let them bang us and we never recovered in the first half.

Second half the play was i think more to do with the Boks easing of and England raising their game. The scrum was much better with Corbs and Waldrom played well i loved him winding the boks up.
I actually think with all the muscle and brawl the Boks have they looked the more tired in the second half as England came on really strong.

One thing i noticed was how quick the forwards are in the Boks team, they don't give the oposition any rest. Not seen a NH rush like that in 6N.


Some key performances:

i felt Parling just seems to surprise me he is the silent assassin, u dont see him much in the game or any eye catching runs/carrys but u look at the stats and the guy consistently has the highest tackles/completion rate.

Botha did ok, i think people give him grief but he gives his all and Lancaster likes him so he must be doing something right? i don't thick palmer was greatly better to be honest (even though on form i think Palmer is better player).

Tom Johnson at 6, i know people said he was better in first game but the tactics and the game was different in Jo'berg, he was largely defending and he did look a little light weight against his opposite number 6,7. However, what i like about Johnson over someone like Haskell is he is a intelligent player. He might sacrifice a little in muscle and brawl but he makes up for it in game intelligence. However, i think we need to see how much Haskell has improved and his physicality could what we need.

J Johnson, not sure about his debut, for sure he doesn't have the defensive game smarts as Brad Barrit but he didn't offer much offensively either. I think the game was such he spent more time worrying about how he needs to defend. A couple of times he was in wrong positions defensively giving the boks more metres more down to experience then his ability.

Robshaw more i see of him more i love this guy HE IS INVOLVED in the action from the first second to last. He is proving a great number 7, he is a constant menace so much so the Boks practiced how to minimise his devastating time at the breakdown. He was not as effective this game as Boks committed more to the breakdown and targeting him more. However, his consistent HIGH tackle rate and commitment you just know the captain led by example. Defensively a rock but missed some key tackles this game.

Overall, the key thing i think we have possibly lost is the defensive organisation. JJ i suspect his inexperience compared to Brad Barrit showed. Barrit doesn't offer much in attack but he can organise a defence like we saw in 6N and he is a great tackler. I also think we miss a enforcer type of player. We never quite have a Martin Johnson player but we have Lawes who i think iso missed in this series. His physicality and his mobility for a forward would of been a great asset. I am not sure how much Tom Wood offer in place of Johnson at 6 but on form Tom is a better player.

Overall, i just feel this is a learning period and we need to take this loss and think and re-group. We need to change something in the forwards as we missing bit of physicality. Creativity with JJ didn't happen but we give him one more try.
 
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Where does the term 'Pom' come from anyway? Meaning? I never knew it was supposed to be offensive. My apologies; I thought it was something along the lines of calling a New Zealander a 'Kiwi'/ We have other terms if we want to be rude (although they are more humorous than insulting TBH).

As for the game. I for one am glad the English came back the way they did. It will motivate us for what would otherwise have truely been a dead rubber had we managed to carry on in the fashion of the first half.

That said, we should actually have been better off than 25-10 going into the break with the dominance in territory, possession and go-forward we had. Still a lot to work on apart from consistency. We really missed Alberts, Kruger and J du Plessis. Coenie Oosthuizen as well now that I think of it. Moving Frans Steyn out to 15 and bringing in Olivier at 12 was also a bad decision IMO as we effectively lost two players (F Steyn and Lambie) rather than just lambie. I think including Buls players (because of familiarity and possibly a bit of sentiment) Olivier, Werner kruger etc bit us in the but because the form players would have been Juan de Jongh and Pat Cilliers IMO. Now will we see Olivier at 12 because of Steyn getting married? Aiiiii!

What i did like about the game ins the continuation of form from some players like Alberts and JdV that I were doubting ahead of the first match and the improvements made by Hougaard and JP Petersen who were a bit slow/uninvolved in the 1st test. That and improved eforts by the whole pack (particularly Coetzee) at the breakdown gives me confidence that we can address shortcomings in our game in double time. May that trend continue.
 
Where does the term 'Pom' come from anyway? Meaning? I never knew it was supposed to be offensive. My apologies; I thought it was something along the lines of calling a New Zealander a 'Kiwi'/ We have other terms if we want to be rude (although they are more humorous than insulting TBH).

Don't worry it's not insulting, just annoying! I think 'pom' has something to do with pommes de terre, as English sailors used to be stereotyped by an obsession for potatoes (Britain grows lots of potatoes I guess). I think that may be right, but I may also be talking out my arse.
 
Where does the term 'Pom' come from anyway? Meaning? I never knew it was supposed to be offensive. My apologies; I thought it was something along the lines of calling a New Zealander a 'Kiwi'/ We have other terms if we want to be rude (although they are more humorous than insulting TBH).

As for the game. I for one am glad the English came back the way they did. It will motivate us for what would otherwise have truely been a dead rubber had we managed to carry on in the fashion of the first half.

That said, we should actually have been better off than 25-10 going into the break with the dominance in territory, possession and go-forward we had. Still a lot to work on apart from consistency. We really missed Alberts, Kruger and J du Plessis. Coenie Oosthuizen as well now that I think of it. Moving Frans Steyn out to 15 and bringing in Olivier at 12 was also a bad decision IMO as we effectively lost two players (F Steyn and Lambie) rather than just lambie. I think including Buls players (because of familiarity and possibly a bit of sentiment) Olivier, Werner kruger etc bit us in the but because the form players would have been Juan de Jongh and Pat Cilliers IMO. Now will we see Olivier at 12 because of Steyn getting married? Aiiiii!

What i did like about the game ins the continuation of form from some players like Alberts and JdV that I were doubting ahead of the first match and the improvements made by Hougaard and JP Petersen who were a bit slow/uninvolved in the 1st test. That and improved eforts by the whole pack (particularly Coetzee) at the breakdown gives me confidence that we can address shortcomings in our game in double time. May that trend continue.

I don't see it as offensive and neither do the Australian or New Zealand advertising boards. I think it is no worse than being called a limey another term that has historic meaning and was just a nickname. I look at it how people from Newcastle tend to when being called a geordie or Liverpool a scouser. As far as I know the term pom has no set date or explanation. Most relate to prisoners in Australia and one theory being it was taken from Prisoner Of the Mother country. As for other names for the english I hope your not refering to bits of my body being dipped in salt water :D
 
I don't see it as offensive and neither do the Australian or New Zealand advertising boards. I think it is no worse than being called a limey another term that has historic meaning and was just a nickname. I look at it how people from Newcastle tend to when being called a geordie or Liverpool a scouser. As far as I know the term pom has no set date or explanation. Most relate to prisoners in Australia and one theory being it was taken from Prisoner Of the Mother country. As for other names for the english I hope your not refering to bits of my body being dipped in salt water :D

Pommy
The term pommy, pom or pomme,[1] in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, commonly denotes a person of British heritage origin. The term Pommie therefore does not relate exclusively to England; it applies equally to those from Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is a term often confused by Australians who have difficulty in noting the synonymity of the four UK nations. A likely[citation needed] explanation is 'Prisoner of the Mother Country'. A derogatory term, it was controversially ruled no longer offensive in 2006 by the Australian Advertising Standards Board and in 2010 by the New Zealand Broadcasting Standards Authority.[2] Despite these changing views, many British people or those of British origin consider the expression offensive or racist when used by people not of British origin to describe English or British people, yet acceptable when used within that community: for example, the community group British People Against Racial Discrimination was among those who complained to the Advertising Standards Board about five advertisements poking fun at "Poms", prompting the 2006 decision.[3]
The origin of this term is not confirmed and there are several persistent false etymologies. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) strongly supports the theory that pommy originated as a contraction of "pomegranate".[4][5][6][7] The OED also suggests that the reason for this is that pomegranate is extinct Australian rhyming slang for immigrant; it cites an article from 14 November 1912, in a once-prominent Australian weekly magazine The Bulletin: "The other day a Pummy Grant (assisted immigrant) was handed a bridle and told to catch a horse." A popular alternative explanation for the theory that pommy is a contraction of "pomegranate", relates to the purported frequency of sunburn among British people in Australia, turning their fair skin the colour of pomegranates.[8] However, there is no hard evidence for the theory regarding sunburn. Pomegranates are also a Middle Eastern fruit and was fairly insignificant fruit in Australia and not well known until recently.[9] Another unofficial explanation is that P.O.M. stands for 'Prisoner of Millbank' or that P.O.H.M.E. stands for 'Prisoner of Her Majesty's Exile'. However, the OED states that there is no evidence for these terms or abbreviations being used and that they are an unlikely source. Historian Richard Holt maintains the origin of the term comes from English cricket tours of Australia where the English gentlemen amateurs would drink Pommery Champagne in preference to Australian beer.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_names_for_the_British

Wikipedia's answer to Pommy
 
To follow the tangent train -

If some Ozzie or Kiwi came on here acting a tool and calling people pommies, I'd complain and I would regard it as racist. However, as a term of general banter/general nickname, it's fine, although I think limey sounds cooler. One of those borderline words where inflection is all.
 
To follow the tangent train -

If some Ozzie or Kiwi came on here acting a tool and calling people pommies, I'd complain and I would regard it as racist. However, as a term of general banter/general nickname, it's fine, although I think limey sounds cooler. One of those borderline words where inflection is all.

lol, you know, if you say most Afrikaans white people they are racist, 75% won't say or do anything or take exception to it, I hear that on a daily basis based on the work I do, so it's all good...
 
Pom is fine.

Likewise for shakle dragger, sheep shagger and humourless racist *******.

All fine as they're all in jest.
 
lol, you know, if you say most Afrikaans white people they are racist, 75% won't say or do anything or take exception to it, I hear that on a daily basis based on the work I do, so it's all good...

I don't consider myself a racist but I wouldn't take offense being called one because being labelled a racists in SA has lost any and all impact as the race card is played at the drop of a hat. I'd assume most of those approximate 75% you speak of fall into the same category as me; fed up and tired regarding anything to do with race and race politics and couldn't give a damn either way.
 
Haskell would be the obvious. I think the game is acctualy on Tuesday so he'd have an extra day to recover? Also, what has happened to Dowson's injury?
 
Hopefully Haskell starts at 7, not Dowson.
Looks like Care will start the test, and Waldrom.

Hopefully Allen can impress to make the test side, but I can't see anyone starting both games, so unless he's hauled off early it won't happen.

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