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[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs France (06/12/20)

Okay, I'm really confused. We're winning. Lots and lots of games. More games than any other team outside NZ and more games than England have won for decades. And yet I'm being told what a terrible team we are with terrible players and a terrible coach. And every England supporter is totally upset by the crapness of their team. What exactly am I missing here? It's a genuine question.
You're looking at the short term rather than the long term
Sure winning this Micky mouse comp is nice but we should've used a completely meaningless comp to test out new players in vital positions.
Exactly like EJ said he was going to this year... before he didn't
We went to the last world cup with Youngs as first choice 9, a journeyman kiwi as second choice and George Ford as third choice. I'd rather we didn't do that again.
 
You need to rewatch the last three minutes. Farrell knocked the ball on at the ruck 78.15 but France got penalised by the ref saying the ball wasn't out. Fords excellent kick went to the corner. Cowan Dickie scores rolling off the back of a super maul into France wing no 11. Who'd played brilliantly for 80 minutes. Sometimes the opposition is simply to big and too fresh for you to stop from 1/2 yard.
Odd thing is the ref had quite a few dubious decisions about us loosing the ball in the ruck before that yet the one where we clearly got it wrong he screwed up.

Don't think he was that good to be honest I'm 99% sure there was a penalty or two in than goal line defense at the end of the first half. And he certainly should of checked the grounding for Launchburry. Not that I think he was that great for France either just a poor all-round game. Unsure why they'd blood a new international ref on a supposed final.
 
Okay, I'm really confused. We're winning. Lots and lots of games. More games than any other team outside NZ and more games than England have won for decades. And yet I'm being told what a terrible team we are with terrible players and a terrible coach. And every England supporter is totally upset by the crapness of their team. What exactly am I missing here? It's a genuine question.
The previous post summed it up pretty darn well, we are facing opposition who are in transitional stages, or in today games complete youngsters, England are putting out their perceived strongest team (injury permitting) and looking pretty poor against half descent opposition and let's face it France today we're probably the only descent one this tournament. Honestly at this stage it does seem like a huge regression from the majority of the WC, this tournament has been a complete waste of time, we know Farrell can do a job at 12 but that should be an option not the only option we really need someone who can break the line the balance is currently completely wrong, the reality is Rngland are probably only a loss or two off going back to that 2018 dip.
 
I think they mean that a short term success in smaller competitions is less important than wins in bigger competitions/world cups and this is a tactic of short term wins there
Yeah, but a short-term winning tactic in a short-term competition makes sense. Doesn't mean that's the way they're gonna play, or even the players they're gonna play, come the world cup. Adapt and survive. That's normal, isn't it?
 
Odd thing is the ref had quite a few dubious decisions about us loosing the ball in the ruck before that yet the one where we clearly got it wrong he screwed up.

Don't think he was that good to be honest I'm 99% sure there was a penalty or two in than goal line defense at the end of the first half. And he certainly should of checked the grounding for Launchburry. Not that I think he was that great for France either just a poor all-round game. Unsure why they'd blood a new international ref on a supposed final.
Agreed felt like a few offsides and potential no arm tackle missed, didn't moan too much though because it was impressive and Farrell would probably have gone for goal and missed anyway.
 
You're looking at the short term rather than the long term
Sure winning this Micky mouse comp is nice but we should've used a completely meaningless comp to test out new players in vital positions.
Exactly like EJ said he was going to this year... before he didn't
We went to the last world cup with Youngs as first choice 9, a journeyman kiwi as second choice and George Ford as third choice. I'd rather we didn't do that again.
With both Robson and Spencer lurking around I'd rather we ditched Youngs altogether but only an injury is going to that. He hasn't been at the races for lengthy period now and it baffles me why we are settling for someone who only reddening feature is rarely makes a catestrophic mistake but scrummies should be that capable.
 
Okay, so as far as I can understand it, fans on this board would have much preferred us to play a team of new caps. And lost these games, but learned whether or not these new caps were worth having. Rather like Wales and Ireland have. The teams whose fans and media are questioning whether their head coaches are the right people for the job.

Honestly, win, win and win some more! It's the only way you build confidence and success. Today, England finally learnt to come back to score in the last minute when all seemed lost, to win despite every bounce of the ball going the wrong way, the lineout malfunctioning, opportunities being missed and the star players out of form. I thought it was a massive step forwards for us. Massive.

But I'm an old crank whose had too much beer, what do I know? :)
 
And then when we stop winning, and have no plan B?

Like I said: short term vs long term
I want us to build a squad that can win the next world cup
Our form is regressing atm, even if we're still managing to win ugly, and we're not looking at strengthening the side.
 
Yeah, but a short-term winning tactic in a short-term competition makes sense. Doesn't mean that's the way they're gonna play, or even the players they're gonna play, come the world cup. Adapt and survive. That's normal, isn't it?
Yes,also makes sense. It depends on circumstances I think (new talents or lack of them to the next WC etc)


You're looking at the short term rather than the long term
You started to copy my posts :p
I feel myself really smart now :rolleyes:
 
Okay, so as far as I can understand it, fans on this board would have much preferred us to play a team of new caps. And lost these games, but learned whether or not these new caps were worth having. Rather like Wales and Ireland have. The teams whose fans and media are questioning whether their head coaches are the right people for the job.

Honestly, win, win and win some more! It's the only way you build confidence and success. Today, England finally learnt to come back to score in the last minute when all seemed lost, to win despite every bounce of the ball going the wrong way, the lineout malfunctioning, opportunities being missed and the star players out of form. I thought it was a massive step forwards for us. Massive.

But I'm an old crank whose had too much beer, what do I know? :)
They have new coaches so completely different I think few are asking for Wholesale squad changes but key positions are still not resolved 9, 12, 8 and 10 to some extent if this nothing tournament is not the time to cap (with descent game time) some players then when the hell is?
 
They have new coaches so completely different I think few are asking for Wholesale squad changes but key positions are still not resolved 9, 12, 8 and 10 to some extent if this nothing tournament is not the time to cap (with descent game time) some players then when the hell is?
I'd like us to settle on 13 but 12, 9 and proper backup to 8 just so we have some idea. I'm less worried about 10 Ford's our clear choice and is young and Farrell will be backup for some time. Both would benefit from a better 9
 
So who's gonna win the 6N starting in 8 weeks time?
I think France they've looked good all year and it's the next step up for them. Wales and Ireland still have some soul searching to do. Scotland are shite and Italy well...
 
And then when we stop winning, and have no plan B?

Like I said: short term vs long term
I want us to build a squad that can win the next world cup
Our form is regressing atm, even if we're still managing to win ugly, and we're not looking at strengthening the side.
Stop winning? Eddie has a ridiculous record as England head coach. He had one bad year in 2018 (and still won half his internationals that year). Otherwise, he's been very effective at winning, winning and winning again. I can't see a regression. He'll completely reinvent the team this time next year, just as he did after the last Lions tour. What we're seeing now is temporary, not permanent.
 
They have new coaches so completely different I think few are asking for Wholesale squad changes but key positions are still not resolved 9, 12, 8 and 10 to some extent if this nothing tournament is not the time to cap (with descent game time) some players then when the hell is?
Italy in the six nations?
 
Stop winning? Eddie has a ridiculous record as England head coach. He had one bad year in 2018 (and still won half his internationals that year). Otherwise, he's been very effective at winning, winning and winning again. I can't see a regression. He'll completely reinvent the team this time next year, just as he did after the last Lions tour. What we're seeing now is temporary, not permanent.
I don't share your optimism.
If he's not trying new players vs Georgia and Italy he's not changing the whole squad wholesale 2 seasons from the WC
 
I don't share your optimism.
If he's not trying new players vs Georgia and Italy he's not changing the whole squad wholesale 2 seasons from the WC
Ah, there's the key. I'm an optimist. A cynic, a fatalist, but totally an optimist. Cheers!:D
 
Stop winning? Eddie has a ridiculous record as England head coach. He had one bad year in 2018 (and still won half his internationals that year). Otherwise, he's been very effective at winning, winning and winning again. I can't see a regression. He'll completely reinvent the team this time next year, just as he did after the last Lions tour. What we're seeing now is temporary, not permanent.
That's the point there is no reinvention going on basically the blue print to beating England is to match or better them in physicality, fortunately from and England perspective very few teams possess the minerals to do that but those that do England will continue to have no answer too.
 
That's the point there is no reinvention going on basically the blue print to beating England is to match or better them in physicality, fortunately from and England perspective very few teams possess the minerals to do that but those that do England will continue to have no answer too.
Honestly though, do you really think this will be the way the England team plays in 2023? Given all that we've seen under Eddie?
 
I think France they've looked good all year and it's the next step up for them. Wales and Ireland still have some soul searching to do. Scotland are shite and Italy well...
France have trips to London and Dublin, they'd do well to win one of those. England are big favourites in my opinion. France are definitely challengers but couldn't have a tougher draw and I wouldn't count us out if Farrell can make some big decisions and get younger lads in in key positions, I doubt either could pull off a grand slam though.
 

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