RWC: New Zealand - Japan (16-09-2011)

[Black Heart]

This is BS, Donald does many things that would transfer over well to the test arena. Donald doesn't lack skill, he lacks mentally. When put under pressure he chokes up.

On a side note, does any one think Jane may be over looked for the french game? Why would he only get 44mins.

I predict Toeava and Kahui will be the wings vs France. (May be SBW could start instead of Toeava)

SBW is not a winger. I doubt that he will start and I very much doubt that he would start on the wing, or get any further chances in that position.

For argument sake, if Williams does run out in a #14 jersey we might as well scatch our name off the Webb Ellis trophy then and there. I'm not suggesting we would loose the World Cup with Williams on the wing, but if for whatever reason he is shifted out there it's a good indication that Henry has once again lost head when it counts.

 

[Shaggy]

SBW is not a winger. I doubt that he will start and I very much doubt that he would start on the wing, or get any further chances in that position.

For argument sake, if Williams does run out in a #14 jersey we might as well scatch our name off the Webb Ellis trophy then and there. I'm not suggesting we would loose the World Cup with Williams on the wing, but if for whatever reason he is shifted out there it's a good indication that Henry has once again lost head when it counts.

SBW got so much game time on the right wing because A/ The All Blacks had the game won already, and B/ Graham Henry needed to know if he could play there OF THE BENCH, if required, as it determined whether he can put him on the bench for future games. I would be very surprised if he started there in any match ... the three backs from on the bench could very well look like: Slade, the reserve half back, and SBW (with Slade covering 10 and 15, and SBW covering 11,12,13, and 14)

... I agree, it would be very unwise/a big risk to start SBW on the wing ... although Henry may be tempted against Canada

 

[Black Heart]

SBW got so much game time on the right wing because A/ The All Blacks had the game won already, and B/ Graham Henry needed to know if he could play there OF THE BENCH, if required, as it determined whether he can put him on the bench for future games. I would be very surprised if he started there in any match ... the three backs from on the bench could very well look like: Slade, the reserve half back, and SBW (with Slade covering 10 and 15, and SBW covering 11,12,13, and 14)

... I agree, it would be very unwise/a big risk to start SBW on the wing ... although Henry may be tempted against Canada

Yes, it was all experimental. I was making the statement for argument sake. I guess the question is: Why wait for the World Cup to start experimenting? He did that last time and backfired. Whilst he admitted that very fact himself it appears he's learned nothing.

 

[jawmalawm24]

Haven't posted on here in ages, anyway I think this was a crap game for the All Blacks all it was unfortunately was a practice run. We could have played with all our injured players and still put 50 on them. I was hoping Japan would give the All Blacks a good go but they didn't. I think Corey Jane deserved a bit more time on the pitch, SBW made some awesome plays no doubt but Jane is more experienced and with his fullback ability has a better kicking game should that be called upon.

Awesome game from the All Blacks but we need to remember this is against Japan, no disrespect to them but we need to play good against the better teams like France before we think we can move on to the finals

 

[markshaw]

mate A or B team we were gonna spank them anyway! chill out haters

 

[kovana]

Embarrassing. The japanese should be ashamed of themselves.
Kirwan needs to give himself an uppercut. Shame on him. He selected a very weak japanese side and he wanted his troops to go into the match EXPECTING to lose. Shameful. He should have played his best team and put them out so they can expect to WIN.
SHAME SHAME SHAME!

Also didnt help that Kaplan is blind and biased trying to give tries to the ABs when they didnt deserve it and also trying his best to prevent the japs from scoring any points at all. Shame on you Kaplan.

IRB, this match did NOTHING for Rugby. Hopefully the IRB prevent further Rubbish matches like this.

 

[Shaggy]

Yes, it was all experimental. I was making the statement for argument sake. I guess the question is: Why wait for the World Cup to start experimenting? He did that last time and backfired. Whilst he admitted that very fact himself it appears he's learned nothing.

yes, I thought you might have been, and to answer the earlier question about starting SBW on the wing ... I dont have an answer as to why now with the experimentation, other than to maintain competition for spots in the match day 22, or perhaps give the other coaches something else to have to plan against.

... possibly it's just that Nonu is playing so well, Smith must start, and the temptation to play another game breaker in some capacity, such as SBW, is too great

 

[Larksea]

Jane did almost nothing in his ~44min. SBW comes on and replaces him and scores 2 trys, sets up at least one other and does some good work on defence and is heavely involved in the game overall and are slaming the idea?

I wouldn't have been sure about a move like that last week but it worked in my eyes and is an option for the next game. The only thing really to be unsure about SBW is under the high ball at the back but he's got great ball skills and he's very tall and with Mills supporting him I think he'd be fine.

I think this situation has been forces but the horid fact that neither Jane, Toeava or Guildford have done the job as wingers in recent times. Toeava maybe the best of them but he's lacked a bit in finishing some chances that should have been finished. Thank Odin Kahui has nailed one wing spot, he's been pretty much flawless on either side of the park. I was looking forward to Jane having a big game but he didn't deliver which makes things complicated.

People need to take it easy on Slade, he's a good player and backing up Carter is the hardest job in NZ rugby. Your chances are limited and every mistake you make gets 4million people on your back and if you're not as good as the best 10 in the world that's not good enough. If the NZ public had got behind donald When things were tough NZ would be better off right now. People still giving donald ****, how many people said he peaked at ITM cup level in this thread alone? Donald is the only 10 outside Carter to be an established first choice 10 at super level in NZ over the last 4 years and he's the only 10 other than Carter to take a team to the super rugby final in at least the last 4-5 years and though his haters hate to admit it he has had match winning performances for the All Blacks to and at the very least his goal kicking for the all blacks was 73-74% which was the same as Carter's %age over the same period.

Time to get behind slade IMO nuf said. Slade's goal kicking started out a bit rough in blustery conditions (one of his kicks looked like it moved right then left then right again...) and he made a couple handelling errors (knock on and intercept pass). The important thing is that he learns from it, I think he did get a bit better as the game went on which is a good sign.

If anything what worried me about that game is the lineout, I didn't like the AB's losing some of their own throws to Japan. And the kickoff where Japan caused problems kicking off to Conrad Smith close to the 10m line.

But overall the game gets a pass mark from me because I think in some ways it was an improvement from the Tonga game and many players played well and combinations worked well together after a lot of changes. Plus chances that were created almost always resulted in trys.

For the AB's this game is really going to come down to winning three games in a row which we all knew anyway. But unlike 2007 at least out last two pool games will be good hit outs and at least the Refs aren't being as negative or as yellow card happy as they were in 2007. yes Carter is critical but we know that anyway.

 

[Shaggy]

Embarrassing. The japanese should be ashamed of themselves.
Kirwan needs to give himself an uppercut. Shame on him. He selected a very weak japanese side and he wanted his troops to go into the match EXPECTING to lose. Shameful. He should have played his best team and put them out so they can expect to WIN.
SHAME SHAME SHAME!

Also didnt help that Kaplan is blind and biased trying to give tries to the ABs when they didnt deserve it and also trying his best to prevent the japs from scoring any points at all. Shame on you Kaplan.

IRB, this match did NOTHING for Rugby. Hopefully the IRB prevent further Rubbish matches like this.

Was Kaplan one of the assistant referees or something? ... the ref was Nigel Owens, who didn't seem biased to me ... it's hardly, anything new for any nation to trot out their second string sides against the Abs at the world cup, during pool play

 

[james5000]

SBW is not a winger. I doubt that he will start and I very much doubt that he would start on the wing, or get any further chances in that position.

For argument sake, if Williams does run out in a #14 jersey we might as well scatch our name off the Webb Ellis trophy then and there. I'm not suggesting we would loose the World Cup with Williams on the wing, but if for whatever reason he is shifted out there it's a good indication that Henry has once again lost head when it counts.

I wasn't trying to say i think SBW should start or even would start. I said that i don't think Jane will start, do you agree?

Personally Jane is still my preferred wing, i just find it hard to fathom why he would play 60ish minutes in the first two games and Toeava and SBW would get like 100+ minutes each when they are fighting for a reserve spot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Embarrassing. The japanese should be ashamed of themselves.
Kirwan needs to give himself an uppercut. Shame on him. He selected a very weak japanese side and he wanted his troops to go into the match EXPECTING to lose. Shameful. He should have played his best team and put them out so they can expect to WIN.
SHAME SHAME SHAME!

Also didnt help that Kaplan is blind and biased trying to give tries to the ABs when they didnt deserve it and also trying his best to prevent the japs from scoring any points at all. Shame on you Kaplan.

IRB, this match did NOTHING for Rugby. Hopefully the IRB prevent further Rubbish matches like this.

Wow ... simply wow.

 

[Black Heart]

yes, I thought you might have been, and to answer the earlier question about starting SBW on the wing ... I dont have an answer as to why now with the experimentation, other than to maintain competition for spots in the match day 22, or perhaps give the other coaches something else to have to plan against.

... possibly it's just that Nonu is playing so well, Smith must start, and the temptation to play another game breaker in some capacity, such as SBW, is too great

See this is where I have a problem. Every player in that squad bar 1 or 2, deserves a position in the top 22. Henry has to face the reality that there are going to be fantasitc players who will miss out. Look at Mils and Dagg for instance, unless Dagg is giving a starting spot on the wing he will most likely be left out of the 22. Now whether you agree with the decision to take Mils over Dagg is beside the point. He needs to announce his top side and get them functioning as one, cohesive unit on the paddock. This means playing everyone in position and to stop chopping and changing players. I know he announced thst he was doing this for "experimental" sake in case of injury but it's just a glorified way of rotating players. Obviously the foward department is fairly secure with the exception of Williams/Boric or Whitelock at lock. The problem is in the backs. Experimentation in the World Cup is no way unite a team. Competition aside.

 

[james5000]

See this is where I have a problem. Every player in that squad bar 1 or 2, deserves a position in the top 22. Henry has to face the reality that there are going to be fantasitc players who will miss out. Look at Mils and Dagg for instance, unless Dagg is giving a starting spot on the wing he will most likely be left out of the 22. Now whether you agree with the decision to take Mils over Dagg is beside the point. He needs to announce his top side and get them functioning as one, cohesive unit on the paddock. This means playing everyone in position and to stop chopping and changing players. I know he announced thst he was doing this for "experimental" sake in case of injury but it's just a glorified way of rotating players. Obviously the foward department is fairly secure with the exception of Williams/Boric or Whitelock at lock. The problem is in the backs. Experimentation in the World Cup is no way unite a team. Competition aside.

This is exactly how i feel, you summed it up perfectly

 

[Black Heart]

I wasn't trying to say i think SBW should start or even would start. I said that i don't think Jane will start, do you agree?

Personally Jane is still my preferred wing, i just find it hard to fathom why he would play 60ish minutes in the first two games and Toeava and SBW would get like 100+ minutes each when they are fighting for a reserve spot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with all of that.

My backline would look something like this:

9. Cowan
10. Carter
11. Kahui
12. Nonu
13. Smith
14. Jane
15. Muliaina

20. Weepu
21. Williams
22. Dagg

Slade would be out to make avaliable that extra spot on the bench.

Edit: I'd only have Muliaina starting if he shows he still has the desire to be in the top XV. His experience and sturdyness will be needed in the playoffs but only if he can still provide for the team. We don't need a John Smit.

 

[Shaggy]

See this is where I have a problem. Every player in that squad bar 1 or 2, deserves a position in the top 22. Henry has to face the reality that there are going to be fantasitc players who will miss out. Look at Mils and Dagg for instance, unless Dagg is giving a starting spot on the wing he will most likely be left out of the 22. Now whether you agree with the decision to take Mils over Dagg is beside the point. He needs to announce his top side and get them functioning as one, cohesive unit on the paddock. This means playing everyone in position and to stop chopping and changing players. I know he announced thst he was doing this for "experimental" sake in case of injury but it's just a glorified way of rotating players. Obviously the foward department is fairly secure with the exception of Williams/Boric or Whitelock at lock. The problem is in the backs. Experimentation in the World Cup is no way unite a team. Competition aside.

I see your point, but consider this ... part of the criticism regarding the ABs at the 2007 tournament was the lack of hard games that the ABs had prior to the knock out stage. It looks as though the same thing is happening if this game is anything to go by.

Internal competition for places may be one of the few ways they have of keeping the players sharp, and keep complacency at bay.

I don't think the team isn't united, if last night was anything to go by ... they were several examples of players in direct competition for places, unselfishly setting each other up for tries, congratulating each other, etc.

The team seem cohesive too, as they didn't drop off/take the foot off the pedal as the replacements came on

 

[Black Heart]

I see your point, but consider this ... part of the criticism regarding the ABs at the 2007 tournament was the lack of hard games that the ABs had prior to the knock out stage. It looks as though the same thing is happening if this game is anything to go by.

That's very true. To an extent the games we've got this year are definatly more competitive. Tonga gave us a good run, as should France. And hopefully Canada should have something to offer as well, if their last match is anything to go by. But consider this also, at the time the All Blacks came out to play Scotland in 2007, Dan Carter openly remarked that he was frustrated with the lack of game time. Now I'm not suggesting our top players are being rested to the same extent as they were back then but one could start to draw parallels with certain players. Not only that, but the QF loss can also be blamed on the selection changes. Henry put a rocky Luke McAlistar in ahead of an in-form Aaron Mauger. I said at the time that it was going to be a disasterous move and sure enough, the concept backfied. This must not happen again, that is, not deciding on our top side well before the playoffs.
Injuries will no doubt become a problem variable later in the tounament but you can only cross with that bridge when you come to it. At present, the one variable Henry has absolute control over is the selection of his top side and to ensure that they know eachother's game and the team game inside out.

withcompetition for places may be one of the few ways they have of keeping the players sharp, and keep complacency at bay.

I don't think the team isn't united, if last night was anything to go by ... they were several examples of players in direct competition for places, unselfishly setting each other up for tries, congratulating each other, etc.

The team seem cohesive too, as they didn't drop off/take the foot off the pedal as the replacements came on

I've no doubt that all the guys are there for the purpose of getting the job done. I guess the argument I was making was that they need to be cohesive as team on the field. Sure they may be all unselfish players and genuinly happy for their mates who get ahead of them in the pecking order but it all becomes pointless if they can't translate that into forming the true team juggernaut they are capible of simply because they've been chopped and changed too much.

 

[nickdnz]

I agree really. We've got Kahui and Sonny Bill Williams being experimented with on the wings, Piri Weepi being brought in at first receiver and it still looks like we haven't nailed down who is the best lock to partner Brad Thorn. These things should have been done in the Tri Nations already. You don't try out moving your second 5/8th to the wing in a Rugby World Cup. The terrible thing is, I think the AB selectors have immediately regretted selecting Guildford, so they see Kahui/SBW as a better/safer left wing than him. If Hosea Gear played in the last two matches, I think everyone can admit he'd have destroyed.

 

[Rhyer]

I think the AB selectors have immediately regretted selecting Guildford

I think you're right...

 

[LittleGuy]

I agree to an extant with kovana and Rusty_lock, this game was ugly. After how special the first round had been this game quickly brought us back to the dark days of 2003 and to a lesser extant 2007 where tier two and three nations were hammered. I can see resting players who have even minor injury issues or one or two key players but this was an awful team. Other teams have had short rest like Canada and Namibia but both fielded(or will field) close to full strength lineups for their second games in which they were huge underdogs. Maybe this choice will bite the Japanese in the bum as their team is probably demoralized while Tonga can take positives from their highly physical Canada game and a great effort in the 2nd half vs. NZ.

I'm guessing AB supporters are supporting Kirwan's decision as he is a former AB and because they got to see a romp and a reasurance that their depth is a thousand times better than lower ranked teams. For neutrals(especially fans of lower ranked teams) and Japanese fans the final whistle was the highlight of the match.

 

[no-1-rugby-fan]

New Zealand played some great rugby yesterday. The amount of different try scorers was the most impressive thing, it shows what a fantastic team they are.