[RWC2019][Quarter-Final 3] Wales vs. France (20/10/2019)

[Observer]

I must confess I never really liked France but even I was kind of shocked about how that game went. Twice this year they were stolen against Wales, I can imagine the damage in french players head.

Besides the fact France obviously deserved to win that one, my biggest problem is the last try. To me, the ball clearly goes forward. Not by a lot mind you, but a forward is a forward and it's baffling the referee refuses to see the second angle, then goes to the french player to explain "it's not clear if the ball moves forward". Unbelievable honestly, if it's not clear, then it's your responsibility to check the second angle in order to take the best informed decision.

To me it raises legit questions about the impartiality of the referee here. And seeing this guy laughing like that after the game just makes it even worse.

I honestly hope for the sake of rugby that SA beats Wales this week-end. Wales will be tough to beat though, they have developed a habit about winning games they should not win and I would not be surprised to see them going further now.

 

[FrenchFan]

France are out, and they can't blame their coach or union. It's all because of Clermont!

Good news for Clermont. At 28 Seb Vahaamahina has got more than a good few seasons in him. I'm sure he'll get all the support at home away from the public hanging. I'm pretty sure beating Tonga in a RWC pool game won't rank very high in Seb's carreer...

Not so good news for the union. Seb was the best available in his position and the pick of the forwards in Japan. He won't be easily replaced.

And if the Clermont players are not good enough the union can cast their net wider and go for Lyon players or Roquefort players. I heard the latter train in caves, live on cheese and only come out for test games. They're said to be be very very fit.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Good news for Clermont. At 28 Seb Vahaamahina has got more than a good few seasons in him. I'm sure he'll get all the support at home away from the public hanging. I'm pretty sure beating Tonga in a RWC pool game won't rank very high in Seb's carreer...

Not so good news for the union. Seb was the best available in his position and the pick of the forwards in Japan. He won't be easily replaced.

And if the Clermont players are not good enough the union can cast their net wider and go for Lyon players or Roquefort players. I heard the latter train in caves, live on cheese and only come out for test games. They're said to be be very very fit.

Well if all else fails, come and poach some more SA Schoolboys. We have a lot of tall trees for France to chop down...

 

[FrenchFan]

Well if all else fails, come and poach some more SA Schoolboys. We have a lot of tall trees for France to chop down...

Didn't see any SA schoolboys around here. Must be living in the wrong part of town...

we're the country with the lowest number of imports in NH but don't let that get in the way
http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2019/01/30/foreign-born-players-in-2019-six-nations/

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Didn't see any SA schoolboys around here. Must be living in the wrong part of town...

we're the country with the lowest number of imports in NH but don't let that get in the way
http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2019/01/30/foreign-born-players-in-2019-six-nations/

That's for the 6N not the RWC

Ignore Heineken, though, he's just annoyed because their Zimbabwean well has run dry

 

[FrenchFan]

That's for the 6N not the RWC

Ignore Heineken, though, he's just annoyed because their Zimbabwean well has run dry

actually Kolbe would prob qualify as 'SA schoolboy' he's small enough. Must ask his age next time I see him...

 

[TRF_heineken]

That's for the 6N not the RWC

Ignore Heineken, though, he's just annoyed because their Zimbabwean well has run dry

Haha! funny guy.

I'm talking about this:

http://www.schoolofrugby.co.za/news...tLlx0_Z2fspLDoeIXJW8BvhBkon6DEM8T3Yh34mUv1kO8

No less than 18 school players of 2019 will play abroad next year.

However, Wolhurter was overlooked for SA Schools selection because of his indication that he'll be furthering his career in France at Montpellier.

Wolhurter will be joined by Marcell Muller (wing, Grey College), Robbie Rodgers (prop, Paul Roos), Lesley Botha (No 8, Grey College) and Sergio Moreira (lock, Noordheuwel) at Montpellier. Rodgers is the son of former Springbok prop Heinrich.

Like Wolhurter, FC du Plessis (Toulon) was overlooked for SA Schools selection, yet several others somehow eluded SA Rugby's policing and still managed to represent the national side during this year's AON international series.

Now France isn't the only culprit, as some guys are going to Japan and England and Australia. But the French clubs certainly did the most damage.

 

[FrenchFan]

Now France isn't the only culprit, as some guys are going to Japan and England and Australia. But the French clubs certainly did the most damage.

in the article I get to a grand total of 13 players possibly moving here (some in the pipeline). Imagine a shocking 13 players into a country of 66M with 2 pro leagues and 30 pro clubs.

we're drowning

 

[TRF_heineken]

in the article I get to a grand total of 13 players possibly moving here (some in the pipeline). Imagine a shocking 13 players into a country of 66M with 2 pro leagues and 30 pro clubs.

we're drowning

Ah. But this happens every year. And it's not your tier 2 or 3 clubs that are doing this, it's your premier clubs in the Pro14. So basically you are buying potential players to play for France. Should these 13 guys eventually play for France, the French team would only have 10 French-born players in the team.

But hey, what do I know, Paul Willemse seems like the obvious player to become a regular for the Frenchies now that Vahaamina is retired. Him and Bernard Le Roux. 2 very French guys...

 

[FrenchFan]

Ah. But this happens every year. And it's not your tier 2 or 3 clubs that are doing this, it's your premier clubs in the Pro14. So basically you are buying potential players to play for France. Should these 13 guys eventually play for France, the French team would only have 10 French-born players in the team.

But hey, what do I know, Paul Willemse seems like the obvious player to become a regular for the Frenchies now that Vahaamina is retired. Him and Bernard Le Roux. 2 very French guys...

Yes and every year many go back because they can't make it here. You ignore the many youngsters who don't make it. They go home after a mere season trial as they can't adapt to the country, the language, our rugby etc. Look at the truckload of foreign 'stars' with big CVs who floundered and went home (Sexton Lydiate Barkley Guildford Tialata very long list....
The clubs are not buying these players with the national team in mind. They don't care about the union. They're not doing for the union. They're doing it to suit their own interest. But they also know the attrition/drop-out rate is very high and that the system will take care of itself by flushing out many candidates. Natural selection.

The scenario of only 10 French born players is a non-runner though. We're one of the NH nations with the lowest number of foreign born players.

Willemse has been dropped from the 45 player group altogether. He's not a test player. If the union pick him ahead of better players it's down to their own poor decision, not the system letting them down. No need for Willemse with Gabrillagues, Lambey, Geraci, Verhaegue, Iturria etc.

 

[bushytop]

Hopefully, now that the South African Union has relaxed the rules over players playing outside of South Africa still being able to represent the Boks, this will mean that a lot of these lost youth will never opt for France as there will be the possibility of playing for their actual country.

 

[FrenchFan]

Hopefully, now that the South African Union has relaxed the rules over players playing outside of South Africa still being able to represent the Boks, this will mean that a lot of these lost youth will never opt for France as there will be the possibility of playing for their actual country.

yes and the French union have closed the residency loophole since December 2016 so there is LESS incentive for foreign players to move here, unless of course they decide to take French nationality. This is a life decision only a minority are likely to make. If they have test ambitions they're better off going home....
https://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/no-more-foreigners-in-france-team-says-laporte.38542/

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hopefully, now that the South African Union has relaxed the rules over players playing outside of South Africa still being able to represent the Boks, this will mean that a lot of these lost youth will never opt for France as there will be the possibility of playing for their actual country.

That's the hope. But that's not what's bothering us at the moment. It's that guys are going abroad directly after finishing school. The local unions have no chance to get these guys in the youth academies and breed them. If these guys gets discouraged overseas, the chance for them to come back and play for a union here, is not so simple unless they have amazing talent and would be a star player immediately. But most of the guys, usually needs a bit of breeding before they evolve.

But yeah, I am over-exaggerating a bit when it comes to France and poaching. What most are forgetting is that a team like Montpellier have invested in SA rugby schools and have agreements with those schools to breed young guys. With so many Saffas playing for Montpellier, it makes sense that they get some young guys in their system too, that way the senior Saffas like the Du Plessis twins, can act as mentors for the young guys.

 

[Goodey]

They are doing that completely for the good of the Montpellier trophy cabinet though. It's not France hoping to snag more imports.

You could probably argue this sort of thing is the main reason the national team isn't strong while the clubs are - because there aren't enough French players in key positions winning matches for their clubs.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

In essence it's just a graduate program, people go abroad for them all of the time. And again, it's not like they're going against their will, they're taking a risk for a bigger pay packet. If anything the FFR have seen the potential problem and closed it by not allowing players play for France based on residency only.

 

[TRF_heineken]

In essence it's just a graduate program, people go abroad for them all of the time. And again, it's not like they're going against their will, they're taking a risk for a bigger pay packet. If anything the FFR have seen the potential problem and closed it by not allowing players play for France based on residency only.

True. But it does allow you to meet the French president and ask him for a French passport... And get it.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

See you in the 3rd place play-off, Wales!

 

[FrenchFan]

But yeah, I am over-exaggerating a bit when it comes to France and poaching. What most are forgetting is that a team like Montpellier have invested in SA rugby schools and have agreements with those schools to breed young guys. With so many Saffas playing for Montpellier, it makes sense that they get some young guys in their system too, that way the senior Saffas like the Du Plessis twins, can act as mentors for the young guys.

I've no idea why Montpellier are recruiting in SA schools. This is not a trend in our rugby. And it's not across the board. Toulouse don't recruit youngsters from abroad. We have a healthy connection with NZ as we've hired former ABs but at senior level not in schools. We do recruit young players from New Caledonia into our academy but they're French born and bred (Peato Mauvaka, Rodrigue Néti).

Just had a quick look at the current Montpellier squad as I heard they've been fielding more French youngsters.
9 SA vs 35 French out of 55 players. 11 French academy players have been signed into the senior squad (under 'Jeunes joueurs intégrés au groupe pro'). 9 out of 55 that's not a lot is it?

https://www.montpellier-rugby.com/effectif

They've also frenchified their staff. Cotter has been moved to DoR. Xavier Garbajosa (ex-Toulouse) is head coach, Pierre Philippe Lafond is from PROD2, Julien Thomas is an ex-player.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The SARU opened the floodgates a little wider (due to understandable financial pressures) by indicating that playing abroad wont hamper your chances of becoming a Bok. I also dont see this as translating into lots of Saffa's joining les Bleus, at least not under Laporte.

But 9 out of 55 is a lot. I get told not to worry, there are only a few European leagues and a limit on how many players they can pinch. But it may soon become more profitable to sit on the bench for a French team (including D2), or not even make the 23, than it is to play for any SR club across the SH. I'd wager that a lot of top SA school talent wont be going home any time soon.

 

[FrenchFan]

But 9 out of 55 is a lot. I get told not to worry, there are only a few European leagues and a limit on how many players they can pinch. But it may soon become more profitable to sit on the bench for a French team (including D2), or not even make the 23, than it is to play for any SR club across the SH. I'd wager that a lot of top SA school talent wont be going home any time soon.

Maks Van Dyk has received his French passport. But real issue is Maks a test player? He is not. He's 3rd choice at Toulouse and he's 27. Good league player but behind Slimani, Bamba (22), Setiano (21) and Aldegheri (23) the last 3 have been capped in last 12 mths. So unless he raises his game considerably (possible) and there's lots of injuries at TH it'll be hard for him to get selected.

With the JIFF system in Top 14 teams must have 14 JIFF players **on match day**. And non-Jiffs are limited to 16 players in the entire squad.
This goes up to 16 Jiffs for match day and no more than 14 non jiffs next season.
17 Jiffs on match day and no more than 13 non jiffs for season 2021-2022.

Don't know how 9 out of 55 is 'a lot'? that's 16% of the entire squad. Montpellier have 35 French players. And among the 14 new pro contracts showing on their website 11 are French.