June International Test: Australia vs. England [3rd Test] (25/06/2016)

[Rich Taff]

I think that's just Aussie humour really; especially in light of Brexit. To be fair I thought it was quite funny. We're never gonna please the Aussie media or diehard Wallbies fans, it's ingrained in them to hate losing to the "Poms", that it's reflected in their their humour and that it's acceptable to hate the English when it comes to sport. It's just their way of dealing with not just losing to the enemy, but also losing 3-0.

Yeah, I found that funny as well. I'm surprised they actually mentioned it in the papers, as I've always heard (from people ex-pats living there), that if Australia lose in a sporting event, then it's not reported.

 

[smartcooky]

Do you actually believe that was a serious statement?

Jesus christ... we really do have a lot more civilising to do.

There is no tone of voice, body language or facial expression on a forum, and the rest of your related posts seemed pretty angry to me, so why would I think that remark was any different.

If you expect others to understand humorous context when you are making potentially disparaging remarks, I suggest you use smilies... that is what they are for!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can we get back to talking about ze rugby please!



What's the opinion on our scrum? Seen a lot of praise for it but I'm not convinced. We did look good in some scrums but a lot of our penalties were flip-a-coin type ones, and I think our reputation carried us through a lot of those pens.
Also, worryingly, Mullan didn't look great in his (brief) cameos. He is significantly better than Mako and Marler in the prem, so that's a shame to see him not make the step up.
Hopefully the summer off with get Marler back to the really-good-scrummaging-Marler we saw before.

 

[ratsapprentice]

There is no tone of voice, body language or facial expression on a forum, and the rest of your related posts seemed pretty angry to me, so why would I think that remark was any different.

If you expect others to understand humorous context when you are making potentially disparaging remarks, I suggest you use smilies... that is what they are for!

The fact that he was saying that we had "civilised" the Aussies on here would suggest that he was taking the pish.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

The fact that he was saying that we had "civilised" the Aussies on here would suggest that he was taking the pish.

Yeah, that bit was clearly a joke. You can't civilise Aussies.

 

[ratsapprentice]

:lol:

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

On the topic of civilising rugby related things, has anyone seen the definition of Manu Tuilagi on Urban Dictionary? It made me chuckle.

 

[Peat]

Only just getting around to seeing the game. End of first half, great game to watch. Historic moment. Fantastic moment.

However - as it is my nature to look at the opponent and what they could have done more to hurt us - its pretty obvious that England are doing a lot more holding players into rucks. Australia? Close to none. The English line becomes whole again. The only example of Australia doing it that I spotted after seeing this pattern was a guy going right over the top to chop down Itoje - completely illegal, nowhere near the ruck - shortly before McMahon's burst that leads to that last penalty of the half.

Honestly? I still think Australia are a team with a higher ceiling than England at the moment. But they are dumb as rocks. This 40 minutes however, we look a lot classier. Are we officially the second best team in the world? We should be.

What's impressive is we're doing it by getting a fairly cobbled together team to play really close to their ceiling consistently. The optimist in me says that when they can start feeding in better players and better system fits, the ceiling goes up a lot, and we will be more dangerous.

The pessimist says players can't stay that long at their peak and sooner or later what goes up must come down.

Also - Ben Youngs - he's one hell of a f' up machine.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Only just getting around to seeing the game. End of first half, great game to watch. Historic moment. Fantastic moment.

However - as it is my nature to look at the opponent and what they could have done more to hurt us - its pretty obvious that England are doing a lot more holding players into rucks. Australia? Close to none. The English line becomes whole again. The only example of Australia doing it that I spotted after seeing this pattern was a guy going right over the top to chop down Itoje - completely illegal, nowhere near the ruck - shortly before McMahon's burst that leads to that last penalty of the half.

Honestly? I still think Australia are a team with a higher ceiling than England at the moment. But they are dumb as rocks. This 40 minutes however, we look a lot classier. Are we officially the second best team in the world? We should be.

What's impressive is we're doing it by getting a fairly cobbled together team to play really close to their ceiling consistently. The optimist in me says that when they can start feeding in better players and better system fits, the ceiling goes up a lot, and we will be more dangerous.

The pessimist says players can't stay that long at their peak and sooner or later what goes up must come down.

Also - Ben Youngs - he's one hell of a f' up machine.

Give us the series blog, you swine.

 

[The Jones Boy]

If I was an Australian, I would find this extremely rude and degrading,....

Are you a bloody closet Australian?
I thought there was something odd about you, now we've got you out of the closet you dingo stroker.

... and if I was in a bar with you and you came out with this kind of remark, you would find yourself on the floor holding your face.

'IF' you were in a bar?
You're not old enough to go to the pub without a guardian and a note from your mummy.
Another keyboard warrior on the rampage.
Shut your stupid mouth you punk kid, let the Poms enjoy the moment.
They have never won a series in Aussie and they did it against the odds on this occasion and they were worth their salt.
It's been a long hard road from the purgatory and ignominy they suffered at their own RWC a few months ago but you couldn't ask for more than they have achieved.
The Poms have fully copped it on here from all corners of the globe and all comers since that time.
Now they collect a rugby milestone and let off some hard earned steam and you wanna get all tough guy, on the internet.
Pathetic.
Leave the Poms alone, let them revel. 3 nil away in Aussie. A first time ever away series win.
They're entitled to their share of banter... and who the hell lies on the floor holding their face?
Maybe 'you' after your boyfriend has given you a slap for burning the toast again...
If you clock someone they won't be holding their face you blouse, they'll be getting a sneak preview of death and when they wake up it'll be a good long while before their chewing corn on the cob again.

Dear Poms, you played incredibly well and you don't deserve this kind of pathetic childish admonishment from a closet Aussie.
Go forth and revel in your magnificent victory and when you inevitably hear the bleatings of the Aussie fans and their media, recognise it for what we kiwi's know it to be... Music. Sweet music to our ears because they have been done.

Congratulations lads, job well done.

 

[The Jones Boy]

What's the opinion on our scrum?

Well, it's better than the Aussies thats for sure.
If the Aussies are not 'boring in' then they are getting scragged at scrum time.
The BIG problem Aussie have is that the weakest link in their team is the tight five.
If they can reconcile that aspect they could be world beaters again.
Until that time the top scrummaging teams. like England, will give them a torrid time at the set piece.

Seen a lot of praise for it but I'm not convinced. We did look good in some scrums but a lot of our penalties were flip-a-coin type ones, and I think our reputation carried us through a lot of those pens.

Whatever works mate. If the cap fits... is a common saying because it's true. Often if people are saying it about you then you believe it a little more, it becomes a motivating element, and you start to emulate the praise.
The Wallaby pack were infringing because they were being outplayed, and, they were getting frustrated at the lack of success they were having at scrum time.

, worryingly, Mullan didn't look great in his (brief) cameos. He is significantly better than Mako and Marler in the prem, so that's a shame to see him not make the step up.

Give the bloke a chance. It takes time to get used to the heat in the furnace. It's a long way up from the level of English premiership. International tests are a level above every other kind of rugby, and playing away from home in such an historic series may well have got to the kid a bit but it does take time at this level.
Look at Stephen Donald, he racked 40+ tests for the AB's and he never seemed settled in the way that he did when he played for his beloved Waikato.
Lo and behold, cometh the hour cometh the man and the 2011 RWC Final...
Don't expect everyone to find their feet immediately at the highest level, some players need time to bed in. You've gotta give them a run of games including some games against lesser quality opponents to help build their 'winning' confidence.
England's pack is perennially strong and this team is no different. They are strong. The pack didn't carry the bulk of the teams failure at the RWC but not having the Kiwi boy Hartley at hooker (and captain) made their scrum and lineouts look more vulnerable at the RWC.
He is back and those doubts are gone. Now the scrum and the line outs look solid.

 

[spartan32]

England Grand Slam Winners, 3-0 series winners, with not only the greatest amounts of points scored against the Aussies, but what must be a rugby first at test level, to loose 40 points and still win! From 8th to 2nd in 6 months. And just to put a cherry on a truly epic rugby cake, U20s destroy Ireland in great display of running rugby to win World Championship.

And with all that there is still so much room for improvement. Young lads who have yet to have had a real chance to make an impression. I'll be really interested to see how EJ introduces people in the months to come, and who will be phased out in prep for the WC 2019, if anyone.

But for now I'm just going to revel in this. We were better then the Aussies in all three matches and deserved to win, and we deserve our No. 2 spot.

And what's better is that, having slagged us off prior to the tour, the Aussies have been beaten and broken, and now have to face up to New Zealand, who are going to totally crush them. What goes around certainly does come around.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Only just getting around to seeing the game. End of first half, great game to watch. Historic moment. Fantastic moment.

However - as it is my nature to look at the opponent and what they could have done more to hurt us - its pretty obvious that England are doing a lot more holding players into rucks. Australia? Close to none. The English line becomes whole again. The only example of Australia doing it that I spotted after seeing this pattern was a guy going right over the top to chop down Itoje - completely illegal, nowhere near the ruck - shortly before McMahon's burst that leads to that last penalty of the half.

Honestly? I still think Australia are a team with a higher ceiling than England at the moment. But they are dumb as rocks. This 40 minutes however, we look a lot classier. Are we officially the second best team in the world? We should be.

What's impressive is we're doing it by getting a fairly cobbled together team to play really close to their ceiling consistently. The optimist in me says that when they can start feeding in better players and better system fits, the ceiling goes up a lot, and we will be more dangerous.

The pessimist says players can't stay that long at their peak and sooner or later what goes up must come down.

Also - Ben Youngs - he's one hell of a f' up machine.

I'm reading this and thinking I totally agree with the statement about players playing close to their ceilings.

If I wanted to look at star players or potential high ceiling players (from a rugby 08 view) then I'd have

1. Mako (scrummaging needs to improve)
2. George (needs more game time)
4. Itoje
8. Billy

But the backs are a real worry. We still have loads of good/ very good players but not many brilliant ones.

The fact we all argue about ford and Farrell shows they both need to improve.

Manu is always injured, so can't build up any form.

We lack top notch centres.

Back three could do with a sprinkle of world class somewhere. I know Watson has potential again but he's not there yet.


That's not all meant to be negative, especially after tour whitewash. More just a look at our team balance between our stars players and work horses.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Good post Living S.

I have a sneaky feeling that our future 12 is developing nicely with his dad at the Gardens....

Youngs is capable of moments of brilliance, but I want to see if Robson makes a difference. His faster service could make our backs look a whole lot different. Or maybe not, but he's worth a look.

Billy vexes me. He's been excellent but my doubts remain. He's earned the right to start in the autumn, but Hughes is now available. Beaumont, a completely different type of player, will be back but above all else I want to see Morgan get himself back in the mix, I think he's a very smart player. If Clifford is an 8, he'd be behind all of those for me. On age grounds if nothing else we need to look at alternatives to Haskshaw; it feels like a shirt is being kept warm for Underhill.

Good series win but plenty to do. Always best to introduce new players into a winning environment.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Good post Living S.

I have a sneaky feeling that our future 12 is developing nicely with his dad at the Gardens....

Youngs is capable of moments of brilliance, but I want to see if Robson makes a difference. His faster service could make our backs look a whole lot different. Or maybe not, but he's worth a look.

Billy vexes me. He's been excellent but my doubts remain. He's earned the right to start in the autumn, but Hughes is now available. Beaumont, a completely different type of player, will be back but above all else I want to see Morgan get himself back in the mix, I think he's a very smart player. If Clifford is an 8, he'd be behind all of those for me. On age grounds if nothing else we need to look at alternatives to Haskshaw; it feels like a shirt is being kept warm for Underhill.

Good series win but plenty to do. Always best to introduce new players into a winning environment.

Does it really? Eddie brought Harrison, a young 7 into this squad for the first time and against Wales he gave Kvesic his 1st cap since 2013. I'd say he's far from keeping the shirt warm for Underhill, he's building experience with Underhill's competition.

I don't think this RWC term is the 1 for Underhill. We may see him pick up a couple of caps to get him involved, but from what we've seen so far, I'd say Eddie wants Harrison and Kvesic as his 7s until and for 2019.

I agree on Billy. He makes big impacts every now and again, but I'm not sure that not having a 3rd back rowers work rate is worth it. He's simply too unfit to be an international back rower, and certainly too unfit to play the full 80, which is what Jones has had him doing. Clifford and Beaumont have the same problems as each other in my mind, both break the line, but neither seems to be willing to do the gritty work in defence or at the break down.

Hughes is the answer. Provides as much, if not more impact than Billy but is much fitter and also provides another lineout option. On top of that, he's also a hell of a lot faster than Billy, although, not as fast as Josh and Jack. He's also the best of the lot at the break down and also has a superb off loading game. The back row I'd like to see for the next 6 Nations:

6. Ewers
7. Kvesic
8. Hughes

20. Harrison

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'm reading this and thinking I totally agree with the statement about players playing close to their ceilings.

If I wanted to look at star players or potential high ceiling players (from a rugby 08 view) then I'd have

1. Mako (scrummaging needs to improve)
2. George (needs more game time)
4. Itoje
8. Billy

But the backs are a real worry. We still have loads of good/ very good players but not many brilliant ones.

The fact we all argue about ford and Farrell shows they both need to improve.

Manu is always injured, so can't build up any form.

We lack top notch centres.

Back three could do with a sprinkle of world class somewhere. I know Watson has potential again but he's not there yet.


That's not all meant to be negative, especially after tour whitewash. More just a look at our team balance between our stars players and work horses.

A lot of good points, very little to disagree with.

One thing I would say is that improvement as a team tends to drag everyone up - or, to look at it in a more negative way, everyone looks good in a good team.

Taking JJ as an example (I use him because he's a player I'm very familiar with, could have chosen others), after a breakthrough season where he made breaks right left and centre he's slightly settled down into a very reliable player who won't let you down but that "spark" is not so evident anymore. Give England a strong platform from a top pack, Ford or Farrell at top form and a 12 who creates space and I suspect that without any change to how he plays he will start to look seriously dangerous again.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Joseph is a class player
His attacking flair will always suffer until England play a more expansive style

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Joseph is a class player
His attacking flair will always suffer until England play a more expansive style

I think JJ thrives off of Ford's good form. Most of the line breaks/tries he got last season both for England and for Bath came from the creative work of his 10. So this season, when Ford's been poor right up until these last 3 tests, JJ hasn't been able to do anything. Hopefully now that Ford seems to be on an upswing, JJ's form will follow.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I think it's more general than that, he thrives on front foot ball and space - it's not just Ford but the Ford-Eastmond combo that he really fed off at Bath. He/England/arguably any rugby team needs a 12 who threatens the line in some way (whether through power or footwork) and holds defenders, creating space in his challenge.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think it's more general than that, he thrives on front foot ball and space - it's not just Ford but the Ford-Eastmond combo that he really fed off at Bath. He/England/arguably any rugby team needs a 12 who threatens the line in some way (whether through power or footwork) and holds defenders, creating space in his challenge.

I didn't mention Eastmond as I was relating the situation to his England form mostly. Obviously Eastmond's dip in form has stunted JJ at Bath.

You raise a good point about JJ needing a 12 that draws defenders, I hadn't thought about that. Faz needs no more than 1 defender, defences would be more wary of a Te'o, a Tuilagi or maybe even a Mallinder.

Although I wouldn't suggest Daly take JJ's place, I do think Daly is able to create more in attack. JJ feeds off of his 10 & 12, Daly can create opportunities by himself.

For now I think the midfield should remain Ford-Farrell-JJ, but after 2017 maybe we should be looking at Ford-Mallinder-JJ. That way, we have a real attacking threat at 12, that is still able to take over kicking duties if Ford's having 1 of his bad days.