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[RWC2019][Pool B] Round 1 - New Zealand vs. South Africa (21/09/2019)

interesting game. Brutal and fairly even encounter fit for a bok v AB game.
Both sides will be a bit frustrated by the ref, the Boks will complain about the penalty count but the Ref also let them get away with a lot there was the first AB penalty which was clearly a cynical professional foul hard on defense after a breakout. That's a yellow card every day, deliberate foul and prevented a try on desperate defense right under the sticks. The other or me was in the 46th minute just before the only Bok try the AB's recovered from that amazing bok breakout and Richie tackle, ALB took the ball well up past the bok defense then after that ruck 3-4 Bok were way offside in the AB back-line and PSDT effected the turnover from a clear offside position. And it was a Ruck, #5 made the tackle assisted by #1 who remained on his feet over the ball was then cleaned out by AB#8 & #12 making it clearly a ruck. PSDT wasn't just flat he came from behind the AB line, given that the AB's had a HUGE overlap (4-5 on 2) that was a professional foul as well. Also one thing the bok were doing was getting up from a tackle and running again without releasing and regathering the ball. When a player is tackled the tackler has to release the carrier and the carrier has to release the ball. He can get to his feet and pick it up again but he still has to release it.

Anyway... The game kinda went how I expected, I thought the AB's would get more tries though, they did leave a few out there. The box kicking from both sides was a bit frustrating it seems that may be a theme of this world cup with most of the top teams employing flat rushing defenses.

For the AB's
Front row
Laulala was excellent. Moody was great around the park but the scrum wasn't as solid on his side. Ofa was huge on defense late making some big tackles but the scrum did suffer late. It was overall good enough but for sure needs some work. Coles was fairly quiet I thought his main job would be to use his speed to get in the face of the bok 9-10, looked like he tried too but not with much impact. Taylor was really good, lineout was better when he was on as well.
locks
typical whitelock game, very good into everything for 80min. Scott had a huge game, on defense, taking the ball up, scored a try played lock and 6 maybe our best forward along with Savea. Tuipulotu had a huge game, driving players back in tackles, that can't be underestimated. The boks were forced to box kick flat footed because of the defense from players like Paddy.
back row
Cane was great before he went off. Seemed like a mistake from the officials prevented him getting back on after the HIA at half time. He was involved a lot, seemed a plan for him to work the left with Bridge and Savea worked the right with Reece. They were all great, Savea was huge again.
at 9 Smith was very good again his passing was very good I just wish again he would speed the clearance up. I cant help but feel like despite his passe, kicks, defense and decisions being good the critical seconds he is wasting at rucks is preventing the attack from unlocking defenses. Things improved when Perenara got a roll on. I also thought TJ's box kicking was far more effective, mostly in combination with Bridge.
Barrett and Richie were class, it seems like the the two of them moving between 10-15 is starting to work more smoothly. Both making critical plays on attack and defense.
in the midfield ALB was outstanding. So far this year if we have a nominee for IRB player of the year its ALB, before this game he had made 54 tackled and missed just 1 in tests, Again brilliant on defense, on the spot when ever something needs to be done and a handful on attack brilliantly putting Scott Barrett in for a try.
Crotty was solid without having a big impact before subbed. SBW was very good, there was a small passage when he had a kick charged but it was under an advantage, could have been nasty otherwise. But he carried well got over the advantage line and secured the ball. very good busy defense and one great pass which should have resulted in more if not for a poor transfer later in the movement.
Reecce and Bridge were great again in another big test. I think this effort confirms them for the playoffs. Bridge in particular has been amazing the way these guys performed under the high ball really set the tone for the result in many ways. Kolbe aside The boks didn't really offer much on attack with their box kicks nullified. Would have liked to have seen the ball in Sevu's hands more later in the game.
One thing that interested me was how effective Ben Smith was when he came on. He attacked down the short side and created space with short passes and his trademark running style. It was unlucky not to result in more points. Towards the end when the AB's seemed to regain the momentum again I think it was in part due to Benders impact.

Pretty spot on there mate. Couple of points to follow up on:

- A. Smith mucking around at the back of rucks was frustrating, couple of times added pressure unnecessarily
- We looked way better when we held that ball a bit at the end, as you say Ben Smith was doing some really good stuff on the short side. Can't see him getting back into the starting team but I liked him in the role he played.
- you're spot on about our right 5 defence. At times the boks had great continuity and kept rumbling the big boys, we did well to hold them
- I'm amazed the boks are complaining about the ref. They dodged a blatant yellow card (some pedantic refs may have also given a penalty try but I wouldn't have gone that far), and the try was scored from a huge offside intercept.
- for the boks, they had enough ball and territory to win. Got way too narrow on attack in our 22. If they had shifted the attack a bit wider they may have scored a couple more tries. I'm glad they didn't, but boks fans must've been screaming at them to spread it.
- Kitshoff is an awesome player, he and Kolbe were really good for SA.
- De Klerks box kicking was pretty awful. Pollard couldn't get into the game but I think that was more from the fact he wasn't getting much good fast ball to move onto. Seemed to go to one off runners until it got stagnant then back to Pollard to launch a bomb.

Either way, plenty of encouraging things for both teams and both have got improvement to come
I think.
 
XD do you know when they learn it ? or is it something all New Zealanders get taught from a young age ? Wait !! can you do the haka !? XD

My cousin's kid has been able to do his own variations of a haka, like making his own haka, with his own meaningful words since the age of 5. But regular kids, the normies... They learn the haka pretty young here tbh.

A few saffies in here forget that this ABs team is 4 tests old... That's the second game with Bridge and Sevu Reece. And the 4th(?) game at 10 for Mo'unga... We needed to beat SA just to gain some respect, but quite frankly, besides the first 20 minutes we never really looked in doubt. The try in the second half come from a guy coming back from the 5metre line and NEVER getting on-side once. If we had the two yellow cards we would've scored 40, lol. Our tactics that come in, were new tactics for us vs the rush defence, and frankly, you guys looked like you had no idea how to approach us. I still think that NO-ONE wants to see you guys come out second in the groups. I just think we've found something and it's only going to improve.
 
I will invoke a post I made a week ago and bold some points that became apparent in the match.

My take on the Boks are chances are as follows:

In our favour:
  • The conditions (especially in the pool stages) should favour our playing style.
  • With the calibre of forwards we have we can win ugly. Real ugly.
  • Following on the former point, our front pack is World Class. We have some real tough brutes who can close out a match.
  • We have momentum with us. Everybody is making the right noises. The coach, the players, everybody involved seems to be on the same page.
  • Pollard is at his best and is surely in the top 3 of flyhalves in the world at the moment

Not in our favour:
  • We have some inexperienced players who are very much in the mix. Kolbe and Mapimpi, our premier wingers, and have 18 caps between them. Our bench scrummie has 4 caps. No saying this is an issue but they are untested in this kind of pressure cooker tournament.
Some controversial points:
  • A lot of our success hinges on Faf de Klerk. Now, I highly rate him obviously but he can have an absolute mare and I don't think I've ever seen him turn it around in a match. He'll just be back to normal in the next match. He's a different type of scrummie to du Preez and van der Westhuizen, our other two WC winning 9's. This could put pressure on Jantjies and we don't how he would respond.
  • Willie le Roux. I'm not convinced in his consistency at the back. I think he was at his best for the Boks at 14. He has definitely gotten better though, especially his defence. But he's our best option at 15.

Mapimpi, Le Roux and de Klerk all had a shocker. None were able to turn it around. I was particularly amazed just how **** de Klerk's kicking was. That had to be the worst I've seen from him. Rassie should have taken him off way sooner.

Kolbe once again put his stamp on the 14 jersey. I thought Kolisi had a good showing too. He is clearly not back to 100% fitness though.

The ref got the scrum all kinds of wrong, the Bok scrum was superior and his interpretation of what was happening was a major dent in us getting momentum. Our forward pack is better than the ABs.

Absolute must changes for the next big match (QF) need to be:
  • Nkosi NEEDS to be starting. They need to figure out how to make him and Kolbe work.
  • Kriel in for Am. Kriel is a better athlete and he makes his presence felt when he is on the field. Am has a good rugby brain but he has been unspectacular at 13 for the Boks.
  • Faf and Willie need to chill and do the basics right. Their experience and their positions are too important for how we play.
All that said, I didn't see enough from the Boks for us to warrant a victory. I do think that the score would have been closer if better calls were made at scrum time
 
great game.
it must be hard on the players when some refs have different rules to other refs. According to Garces, hands are allowed in rucks, but you are allowed to hold onto the ball. It went both ways, didn't favour either team. Credit to Savea in the second half realising how the game was being reffed. he got 3 or 4 turnovers, maybe 2 of which he wouldn't under a different ref, but then there were another 2-3 he should have got if the tackled player wasn't allowed to hold on (actually there was inconsistency here, because he did win 1 penalty for them holding on). it must be hard on everyone when refs are inconsistent.
it was actually the worst game I've seen Ardie play in recent memory, but gettign turnovers is massive and he did that readily when at 7 in the second half (all of his turnovers were when he was at 7, so a pretty crazy rate for 40 mins. but he didn't do much else, except a few missed tackles, and was ineffective at 6 in the first half.
Cane was very good.

I'll have to taek back seom comments about who the best front row is for the boks, because Kitschoff was immense. feel bad for trev.
interesting game. Brutal and fairly even encounter fit for a bok v AB game.
Both sides will be a bit frustrated by the ref, the Boks will complain about the penalty count but the Ref also let them get away with a lot there was the first AB penalty which was clearly a cynical professional foul hard on defense after a breakout. That's a yellow card every day, deliberate foul and prevented a try on desperate defense right under the sticks. The other or me was in the 46th minute just before the only Bok try the AB's recovered from that amazing bok breakout and Richie tackle, ALB took the ball well up past the bok defense then after that ruck 3-4 Bok were way offside in the AB back-line and PSDT effected the turnover from a clear offside position. And it was a Ruck, #5 made the tackle assisted by #1 who remained on his feet over the ball was then cleaned out by AB#8 & #12 making it clearly a ruck. PSDT wasn't just flat he came from behind the AB line, given that the AB's had a HUGE overlap (4-5 on 2) that was a professional foul as well. Also one thing the bok were doing was getting up from a tackle and running again without releasing and regathering the ball. When a player is tackled the tackler has to release the carrier and the carrier has to release the ball. He can get to his feet and pick it up again but he still has to release it.

Anyway... The game kinda went how I expected, I thought the AB's would get more tries though, they did leave a few out there. The box kicking from both sides was a bit frustrating it seems that may be a theme of this world cup with most of the top teams employing flat rushing defenses.

For the AB's
Front row
Laulala was excellent. Moody was great around the park but the scrum wasn't as solid on his side. Ofa was huge on defense late making some big tackles but the scrum did suffer late. It was overall good enough but for sure needs some work. Coles was fairly quiet I thought his main job would be to use his speed to get in the face of the bok 9-10, looked like he tried too but not with much impact. Taylor was really good, lineout was better when he was on as well.
locks
typical whitelock game, very good into everything for 80min. Scott had a huge game, on defense, taking the ball up, scored a try played lock and 6 maybe our best forward along with Savea. Tuipulotu had a huge game, driving players back in tackles, that can't be underestimated. The boks were forced to box kick flat footed because of the defense from players like Paddy.
back row
Cane was great before he went off. Seemed like a mistake from the officials prevented him getting back on after the HIA at half time. He was involved a lot, seemed a plan for him to work the left with Bridge and Savea worked the right with Reece. They were all great, Savea was huge again.
at 9 Smith was very good again his passing was very good I just wish again he would speed the clearance up. I cant help but feel like despite his passe, kicks, defense and decisions being good the critical seconds he is wasting at rucks is preventing the attack from unlocking defenses. Things improved when Perenara got a roll on. I also thought TJ's box kicking was far more effective, mostly in combination with Bridge.
Barrett and Richie were class, it seems like the the two of them moving between 10-15 is starting to work more smoothly. Both making critical plays on attack and defense.
in the midfield ALB was outstanding. So far this year if we have a nominee for IRB player of the year its ALB, before this game he had made 54 tackled and missed just 1 in tests, Again brilliant on defense, on the spot when ever something needs to be done and a handful on attack brilliantly putting Scott Barrett in for a try.
Crotty was solid without having a big impact before subbed. SBW was very good, there was a small passage when he had a kick charged but it was under an advantage, could have been nasty otherwise. But he carried well got over the advantage line and secured the ball. very good busy defense and one great pass which should have resulted in more if not for a poor transfer later in the movement.
Reecce and Bridge were great again in another big test. I think this effort confirms them for the playoffs. Bridge in particular has been amazing the way these guys performed under the high ball really set the tone for the result in many ways. Kolbe aside The boks didn't really offer much on attack with their box kicks nullified. Would have liked to have seen the ball in Sevu's hands more later in the game.
One thing that interested me was how effective Ben Smith was when he came on. He attacked down the short side and created space with short passes and his trademark running style. It was unlucky not to result in more points. Towards the end when the AB's seemed to regain the momentum again I think it was in part due to Benders impact.
good analysis, as always.
re-b.smith, I actually like him in this role. I've been saying for a while now that in wolrd cups you should pick your finishing 15 first. bender has to be in that, probably few would argue. the question then becomes, should he also be in the starting 15? I like the idea that he will be fresh; he is a leader in the team, and I like the idea that he can really lead form the front when coming on fresh, spotting opportunities and just being everywhere, taking control.
regarding ALB I'm glad he is a first choice now (at least I think he is, could just be that others have ****les). He's been my favourite player since before he could make the starting lineup at the chiefs, because I've always liked the way he plays, and saw great potential. He is now consistently living up to that potential.
Yeah I thought that, but then that's one of the few ways you can make ground now that being 30m offside is fine.
aha,

the assistant refs certainly don't seem to do much assisting. the main ref can't look at everything ( I accidentally wrote "anything", then had to correct it. Freudian slip perhaps)

Had to hide offline coz I was in the cheap seats and the game has only just finished for me...

Game wasn't even really close tbh. That second half try for SA started from the most glaringly obvious offside play at the ball. Can we get a "lazy running" yellow card for that? Think I counted about 8 high tackles in the first half, some definite plays at the neck in the clear outs... Are we now being super loose on high tackles again? That first incident with killing the ball, which is a professional foul, was a yellow if it was the All Blacks that did it. I would definitely say going forward these two teams are the ones to beat.
i thought he released the player. which subjective judgement takes priority, 'clearly release' or 'place the ball immediately'? But yeah, i wondered about the PSDT one. Rucks are so ambiguously, contradictorily, reffed.
Favouritism to who or what?
himself
All blacks getting all the decisions

Suprise suprise
not even close to true. just very poor reffing all around and most people only able to see one side of it.
 
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My reasoning behind saying SA vs England in the final isn't that I feel we now have an easier route to the final. Quite the contrary probably. This is assuming the rest of the tournament pans out as 99% of people will expect of course which of course it mighn't. Its more to do with the fact that personally I see our probable route as a good build up: Italy into Ireland into Wales into the final. I don't buy into comments that a pro team can't get up for 3 tier 1 games. My reason for picking SA here is mostly because I am South African. It can just as easily be one of Ireland or Wales.

On the other side of it NZ will coast until they meat England or France in the semi. I see them 'chocking' to either as likely as not as I don't think they are quite as good as most NZ fans believe them to be. In this game I feel they won it even less than SA lost it TBH. NZers keep harping on about Mapimpi "should of gotten yellow" and oh my mile offside. That is Garces. He was just being consistent as that was what your boys were doing for the first 20 at the other end of the field. It was one of two things Mapimpi actually got right IMO.

This is going to sound like sour grapes and a complaint and to a degree it is but also it isn't as Garces is/should've been a known quantity. Its not as much those 3 or 4 one off poor calls/non-calls but his general handling of the game I feel SA fans are sour with and NZ fans seemingly just don't see which I feel painted this match (on top of some horrendous play by us TBF!). Other referees probably won't allow the ABs to clear their rucks from the side every other time and will be more likely to penalize players holding onto the ball on the deck. NZ tacklers trying to get away from the ball after the tackle but on the SA side.. The scrums Garces seemingly always has wrong as well. How many times did NZ get a free kick or penalty while they had hands on the ground, illegally bound or coming in on the tight head at such an angle I feared for their ribs. Even one scrum where we domintaed despite this we got pinged. We got one token penalty when it was 10 down with 1 minute to go. We stood up and ironically clapped the call in front of the TV.

Now credit to NZ they played what they got and took their chances better and thoroughly deserve the win. I just got this feeling that this NZ team isn't a championship side. I don't buy into comments saying that NZ can "turn on their new style at will to put the game in the bag and no-one can live with it". I just don't believe things are so scripted. I might be wrong. Might just be sour grapes or frustration with a few of our performances (Faf especially LOL but there were a few others) informing my thoughts. Who knows. I do know we were two scores away from tying/winning in a match we had no right being close there were so many issues with our approach and we just couldn't adapt to the ref. I think some of the NH top sides will be fancying their chances as well.
 
My reasoning behind saying SA vs England in the final isn't that I feel we now have an easier route to the final. Quite the contrary probably. This is assuming the rest of the tournament pans out as 99% of people will expect of course which of course it mighn't. Its more to do with the fact that personally I see our probable route as a good build up: Italy into Ireland into Wales into the final. I don't buy into comments that a pro team can't get up for 3 tier 1 games. My reason for picking SA here is mostly because I am South African. It can just as easily be one of Ireland or Wales.

On the other side of it NZ will coast until they meat England or France in the semi. I see them 'chocking' to either as likely as not as I don't think they are quite as good as most NZ fans believe them to be. In this game I feel they won it even less than SA lost it TBH. NZers keep harping on about Mapimpi "should of gotten yellow" and oh my mile offside. That is Garces. He was just being consistent as that was what your boys were doing for the first 20 at the other end of the field. It was one of two things Mapimpi actually got right IMO.

This is going to sound like sour grapes and a complaint and to a degree it is but also it isn't as Garces is/should've been a known quantity. Its not as much those 3 or 4 one off poor calls/non-calls but his general handling of the game I feel SA fans are sour with and NZ fans seemingly just don't see which I feel painted this match (on top of some horrendous play by us TBF!). Other referees probably won't allow the ABs to clear their rucks from the side every other time and will be more likely to penalize players holding onto the ball on the deck. NZ tacklers trying to get away from the ball after the tackle but on the SA side.. The scrums Garces seemingly always has wrong as well. How many times did NZ get a free kick or penalty while they had hands on the ground, illegally bound or coming in on the tight head at such an angle I feared for their ribs. Even one scrum where we domintaed despite this we got pinged. We got one token penalty when it was 10 down with 1 minute to go. We stood up and ironically clapped the call in front of the TV.

Now credit to NZ they played what they got and took their chances better and thoroughly deserve the win. I just got this feeling that this NZ team isn't a championship side. I don't buy into comments saying that NZ can "turn on their new style at will to put the game in the bag and no-one can live with it". I just don't believe things are so scripted. I might be wrong. Might just be sour grapes or frustration with a few of our performances (Faf especially LOL but there were a few others) informing my thoughts. Who knows. I do know we were two scores away from tying/winning in a match we had no right being close there were so many issues with our approach and we just couldn't adapt to the ref. I think some of the NH top sides will be fancying their chances as well.

By the same token, not sure how many other teams would've survived that first 20mins and only been 3-0 down. The boks were pretty relentless in that period.

The ref was bad both ways, missed a couple of penalties to you guys but missed a blatant yellow (more on Am than Mapimpi), then PSDT's try was about as offside as you can get when he got the intercept. So yes I'd happily give you 2-3 penalties if we could have had 10mins against 14 and the try didn't happen.
 
Reading through here it amazes me how different people can watch the same game and get totally different take-aways from it. I watched a totally different game. Let me just leave it at that.

What I will say though and please quote me.. SA v England final..

I think you might be right!
You will probably play Ireland in the quarters. We will probably play Scotland or Japan. I know which one is easier.

I think Ireland then Wales/Australia is an easier route than Scotland then England.

But at that level none of the games are easy
 
I think you might be right!


I think Ireland then Wales/Australia is an easier route than Scotland then England.

But at that level none of the games are easy

Well, just to put this narrative into perspective, I really hope Wales win their group as a French/Arg QF, followed by a SA/Ireland SF is far more preferable than being runners up and facing England and then the All Blacks.

Yes SA, you're the 'easy' route too :p...
 
I think you might be right!


I think Ireland then Wales/Australia is an easier route than Scotland then England.

But at that level none of the games are easy

Yeah not sure about that. NZ/SA you'd expect to beat Scotland, whereas Ireland is much more of a toss up. So SA now have two games they could definitely lose before they get to a final, whereas the ABs really only have one (barring disaster against Scotland).
 
Not only Jermone Garces but he will be assisted by Poite, its like world rugby Continually tries to sabotage and show SA rugby the middle finger. We probably only got Garces because Bryce Lawrence was unavailable. I don't like how hard on the whistle the French refs are

Now you see, I thought WE were at a disadvantage with French referees, given our record under them recently especially Garces, because he is very slack on policing midfield offsides, and lets be clear, the "rush" defence we are seeing being used by teams such as Ireland and South Africa is really an "offside" defence - they start from in front of the hind most foot, and they rush early nearly every time. Last night was no exception

It is something that the referees really need to crack down on because it stifles enterprising back-play.
 
I think you might be right!


I think Ireland then Wales/Australia is an easier route than Scotland then England.

But at that level none of the games are easy

Any route that involves us playing the Welsh should be considered the toughest road to traverse... we haven't beaten them for an age.
 
Well, just to put this narrative into perspective, I really hope Wales win their group as a French/Arg QF, followed by a SA/Ireland SF is far more preferable than being runners up and facing England and then the All Blacks.

Yes SA, you're the 'easy' route too :p...

Yeah not sure about that. NZ/SA you'd expect to beat Scotland, whereas Ireland is much more of a toss up. So SA now have two games they could definitely lose before they get to a final, whereas the ABs really only have one (barring disaster against Scotland).

Any route that doesn't involve England and NZ is the "easy" route, that applies to Wales and Ireland too!
 
Very frustrating watching the ref let all the marginal infringements slide for the All Blacks, but calling out every little thing for the Boks.

Very frustrating watching the ref let all the marginal infringements slide for the Boks, but calling out every little thing for the All Blacks, and what about that gutless decision not to award a YC against Green 11 when he committed a cynical professional infringement by not releasing M'ounga before trying to jackle the ball - I guess you must have missed that huh?
 
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Now you see, I thought WE were at a disadvantage with French referees, given our record under them recently especially Garces, because he is very slack on policing midfield offsides, and lets be clear, the "rush" defence we are seeing being used by teams such as Ireland and South Africa is really an "offside" defence - they start from in front of the hind most foot, and they rush early nearly every time. Last night was no exception

It is something that the referees really need to crack down on because it stifles enterprising back-play.
Watch a replay and look at NZ every ruck someone in front of the back foot
 

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