[RWC2019][Pool C] Round 2 - England vs. USA (26/09/2019)

[Rugby Fan 1512]

I'm not really concerned with what WR do re: protocols - they're fairly capricious. They'll do what they do.
I am concerned with the accuracy of discussion about the events though, because they're fairly technical.

Clearly wrap/no-wrap is important when judging recklessness.

The trouble about not caring about the IRB protocols is in essence not caring too much about rules of the game. Whether we like it or not, the interpretation of these protocols is the crux of the high tackle issue. 10.4 is fairly clear on the margins of the tackle area. Perhaps I could refer you to world rugby's web site Decision making framework for high tackles. There is a differentiation in the laws over shoulder charges and high tackles, both dealt with in their own right. A wrap of the arms or not simply is not the first issue when it comes to dangerous contact to the head / neck area it's just one element in the decision making process.

 

[Rugby Fan 1512]

I'm not really concerned with what WR do re: protocols - they're fairly capricious. They'll do what they do.
I am concerned with the accuracy of discussion about the events though, because they're fairly technical.

Clearly wrap/no-wrap is important when judging recklessness.

The trouble about not caring about the IRB protocols is in essence not caring too much about rules of the game. Whether we like it or not, the interpretation of these protocols is the crux of the high tackle issue. 10.4 is fairly clear on the margins of the tackle area. Perhaps I could refer you to world rugby's web site Decision making framework for high tackles. There is a differentiation in the laws over shoulder charges and high tackles, both dealt with in their own right. A wrap of the arms or not simply is not the first issue when it comes to dangerous contact to the head / neck area it's just one element in the decision making process.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Cokonasiga looks for contact way too much IMO. The best big wingers use their pace and footwork foremost and their size is just an added benefit. With Cokonasiga he just slams straight into the defender every time with no deception.

Bit of a hot take, but....

Said pretty much the same in a group chat that I found more interesting that watching much of the game. Compared to Watson or Nowell, his footwork is non-existent, unless the ball is going to get to him at full tilt in space, I'm struggling to see much worth in him. Running people over isn't working.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The trouble about not caring about the IRB protocols is in essence not caring too much about rules of the game. Whether we like it or not, the interpretation of these protocols is the crux of the high tackle issue. 10.4 is fairly clear on the margins of the tackle area. Perhaps I could refer you to world rugby's web site Decision making framework for high tackles. There is a differentiation in the laws over shoulder charges and high tackles, both dealt with in their own right. A wrap of the arms or not simply is not the first issue when it comes to dangerous contact to the head / neck area it's just one element in the decision making process.

Correct.

I don't mean that to come across as curt or brusque. I just have a very strong vision of what the game is and isn't to me. What is and isn't legitimate, what should and shouldn't be legal or otherwise. What WR does is largely irrelevant to that.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I don't really get the whole Nowell thing either especially with so many wingers who deserve a spot from the Prem. I don't think he is as much of a must have than Mako and we probably needed another SH tbh.

Hopefully I'm not allowing myself to be blinded by Cornish loyalty, but I don't get what you're not getting! I can sympathise with the view that he doesn't have the pace for an international winger (I have said here in the past that I think he'd have a higher ceiling at 13 or 15), but that doesn't appear to be your gripe.

I've already said that my take on the chance that Jones took on Nowell is because of the esteem Jones holds him in. Maybe I should have expanded on this. He has a skill set that no other winger available has - when he's not playing, whoever plays in his place does so with a different remit. If Jones didn't see value in this, he would either pick someone else or use Nowell in a traditional role.

Who are these many players who deserve a spot. Thorley appears to be next in line based on the wider training squad, if you accept that we need the number of wingers that we took, would you really advocate putting two uncapped wingers into a World Cup squad? Failing that, who is above Thorley in your pecking order?

 

[die_mole]

The opening tackle looks a lot worse in slomo than live. Watching it live I was just like "****, England is here to play."

Apparently aainu was on crutches which could be awful. Hope Toulouse isn't too ****** off about it. Missing aainu and hooley could make Tonga a much harder game.

AJ was the only player who looked like he belonged with the English players. Iosofo is great for a sevens convert. Lasike is pretty good but he's asked to do a lot in this USA squad.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Bit of a hot take, but....

Said pretty much the same in a group chat that I found more interesting that watching much of the game. Compared to Watson or Nowell, his footwork is non-existent, unless the ball is going to get to him at full tilt in space, I'm struggling to see much worth in him. Running people over isn't working.

At Junior level he could do that but when you take the step up to test level if you run straight at people, regardless of their size, they will make the tackle 99/100. He's still new so it's just something you would expect him to grow out of and start to use a bit more footwork.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Bit of a hot take, but....

Said pretty much the same in a group chat that I found more interesting that watching much of the game. Compared to Watson or Nowell, his footwork is non-existent, unless the ball is going to get to him at full tilt in space, I'm struggling to see much worth in him. Running people over isn't working.

Partly his rawness, and partly the way he's being utilised I'd suggest.

Billy and Manu (and pretty much anyone) have the same issue when they're basically the only physical threat - it's easy to deal with.

 

[Which Tyler]

Partly his rawness, and partly the way he's being utilised I'd suggest.

Billy and Manu (and pretty much anyone) have the same issue when they're basically the only physical threat - it's easy to deal with.

Yeah - he's shown for Bath that he has a lot more to his game. Suspicion is that Eddie (or Coka himself) doesn't want to risk it at international level.
Either way, until he does show that he can do the intellect, agility, running angles etc things at international level, then he's a bench option at best.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Mainly the understanding that rugby is an outdoor sport.

I don't mind (well I do really) a roof protecting from bad elements, or to keep the Taffs' singing in. But there's a difference between that and the artificial environment impacting directly on the games. It does seem like the increased humidity and sweat is making a nonsense of some otherwise competent players' handling. Which is disappointing.....and downright scary with Daly at full back.

It would be interesting to know how much of an impact the roof is having on the ambient temperature / humidity. IIRC, Jones mentioned 27 degrees and 70% humidity. If that's correct, it was only 3 degrees hotter than it is right now (if Google is to be believed) and was 12% less humid than it is right now, although it appears that humidity continues to rise throughout the evening.

Given the possibility of the game being a 0-0 draw if heavy rain hit, I can make my peace with the roof.

Do any of the Top League teams teams play under a roof?

 

[Crags]

Easy. Just as everybody thought it would be. That red card was very much deserved. It was horrific. The England fans will be fancying their chances. I would say, Look at who you have played so far.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Easy. Just as everybody thought it would be. That red card was very much deserved. It was horrific. The England fans will be fancying their chances. I would say, Look at who you have played so far.

Damn those arrogant English! I've seen little or no evidence of that among those I engage with about rugby. Is this based on what you've seen, or what you would like to see in order to justify your preconceptions?

I feel no more or less confident about England's prospects than I did last Thursday. On the one hand, performances have been lacklustre, on the other hand the team have come through almost unscathed, with good players returning or soon to do so. One way or another, the next match could alter this opinion significantly. What says anyone else?

 

[ncurd]

We are pretty much at job done stage. Two BP wins nice rest before Argentina and the real campaign begins. And it's going to be tough and tougher the deeper we go. Still can't see us winning 3 consecutive games.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

*rubs eyes* Joseph threw a pass close to a teammate, who caught it and scored a try. Strike a light!

 

[RedruthRFC]

Still can't see us winning 3 consecutive games.

Three in a row as in Argentina, France and Australia / Wales, or three knockout games in a row? If the former is the case, I would prefer for us to lose to France finish runners up in that case!

 

[Which Tyler]

Three in a row as in Argentina, France and Australia / Wales, or three knockout games in a row? If the former is the case, I would prefer for us to lose to France finish runners up in that case!

Or possibly Italy, Tonga, USA... erm...

 

[BigJono8]

We are pretty much at job done stage. Two BP wins nice rest before Argentina and the real campaign begins. And it's going to be tough and tougher the deeper we go. Still can't see us winning 3 consecutive games.

I think we have good momentum and can turn up the gas when we want.

If we beat Argentina we are through.

We've so far come through unscathed which is really helping our chances.

Have the faith!

 

[Grizwald]

Time will tell if having the supposed two easier games first up were beneficial or not. When I first saw the draw I thought it was quite positive to be able to build some momentum. So far this world cup is showing in my opinion the tier two nations have moved on in terms of their structure and defence from 2015 and previous competitions.

For someone who benefits from playing got match fitness etc Billy isn't tearing up trees for me in his form. Heinz looks the far better option for me on form too his quicker delivery is going to suit a route one gameplan utilising the big runners.​

 

[Which Tyler]

1. Marler
2. George
3. Sinkler
4. Itoje
5. Kris
6. Curry
7. Underhill
8. Wilson

9. Heinz
10. Ford
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Joseph
14. Cokanasiga
15. Watson

16. Cowan-Dickie, 17. MVunipola, 18. Cole, 19. Lawes, 20. BVunipola
21. Youngs, 22. Farrell, 23. Daly



Billy and Daly have yet to impress in the last 2 months, so they get a kick in the arse (quite apart from that, imagine both Vunipolae coming on together for 25 minutes, with a point to prove - ouch). Coka is hardly secure in his place there, but Daly needs to try earning a shirt again - and offers more from the bench.
All 3 of those I've mentioned here could earn the selves a starting berth against France if they play well - actually, that goes for allmof my bench... except Cole

 

[Grizwald]

1. Marler
2. George
3. Sinkler
4. Itoje
5. Kris
6. Curry
7. Underhill
8. Wilson

9. Heinz
10. Ford
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Joseph
14. Cokanasiga
15. Watson

16. Cowan-Dickie, 17. MVunipola, 18. Cole, 19. Lawes, 20. BVunipola
21. Youngs, 22. Farrell, 23. Daly

For Argentina? I dnon't like the idea of Manu at 12 I also don't think that's in EJ current think either. I'd start Wilson at 6 and Curry at 7. For me Wilson is England's most consistent performer over the last 12 months. Think he will give another carrying option to lighten Billy's load too.